Joseph Baker
by Joseph Baker
For many students looking for a career in healthcare, allopathic medical school is the only option that they have considered. While information exists on podiatry as a professional career choice, it can be missed behind the stacks of information on allopathic and osteopathic medicine.
Podiatry school, or podiatric medical school, is very similar to its allopathic and osteopathic medical school counterparts, with some key differences. The biggest difference is the degree earned. A graduate of podiatric medical school receives a doctoral degree of podiatric medicine, or a DPM. This degree certifies the graduate to be a complete and specialized physician of the foot and ankle.
Following graduation from a four-year podiatric medical college, a podiatrist will then go through three years of residency training. Podiatrists, or podiatric physicians, commonly treat sprains, strains, and fractures of the foot and ankle, biomechanical deformities, dermatological problems of the lower extremity, and many other conditions of the lower extremity.
As an undergraduate student, I knew that I wanted a career in healthcare, but I was not sure which aspect of healthcare would interest me the most. I shadowed several different doctors, including an internist, an otolaryngologist, and an orthopedic surgeon. I also shadowed a dentist and a pharmacist, and worked in a research lab with a microbiologist. I had lots of experiences with all kinds of healthcare professionals, but my decision to apply to podiatry school came after shadowing a podiatrist.
It was truly a great experience. The podiatrist that I shadowed was the most willing of any of the professionals to have me come to work with him for a day. In fact, I ended up going back several times to see various procedures, including both clinical and surgical operations.
The array of procedures that I observed would have been enough to turn me on to the field, but it was a comment from one of the patients that really had an impact in my decision. She told me that her podiatrist was her absolute favorite doctor, and the only one that she looked forward to seeing. It was right then and there that I knew that this was the profession was for me.
To be fair, I did have some experience working with foot and ankle injuries. I worked a part-time job in college in a running store, and was exposed to quite a bit of sports-related injuries. I think that this exposure contributed to my interest in the field of podiatric medicine, and the experience I had shadowing a doctor of podiatric medicine solidified my decision.
Now that I have been through one year of school and am beginning my second year, I can without a single doubt say that my decision to go to podiatric medical school was the best decision that I’ve ever made. The day-to-day learning that comes with an education in podiatric medicine includes the basic science curriculum seen in other medical fields, but tailored to podiatry. This gets me and my fellow students pumped up about learning, because we learn about our specialty much earlier than allopathic or osteopathic medical students. Right now I’m taking a sports medicine class, and we’ll be starting podiatric radiology soon. It’s great to begin learning about the specialty while still in school, rather than waiting until residency to begin training in a particular area.
Students working in podiatry anatomy lab
A typical day for me in school involves either a full day of class, or a day spent in the podiatry clinic that is run by the school. In the clinic, we get lots of patient exposure and practice. We take the patient’s history, perform a focused physical exam, and may assist in procedures. I’ve seen lots of really interesting cases so far, and I’ve only just begun in the clinic. By the end of the second year I will have had a ton of interactions with patients, which is something unique to podiatry school.
As far as the curriculum goes, our classes are a lot like the classes at any other medical school. In fact, our podiatry school is at the same university as an allopathic medical school, and we take a lot of classes with the allopathic students. This helps to promote an interprofessional learning environment, something that is very common in healthcare. We as podiatry students take anatomy and pathology with the allopathic students, as well as our clinical reasoning course. It’s nice to have friends and colleagues in school that are going into different fields of medicine, because we will likely be working together in the future as physicians.
Being a podiatrist is an excellent career choice, and it is something that all pre-health students should consider. It is an option among many, but for me it is the best choice.
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APMA has a new video that has other students and DPMs talking about why they chose podiatric medicine. This is a great article and the video (hosted on YouTube) is also a great way to learn about this career. Feel free to watch it at this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvDu7oeAzRE
As a medical student, I do not see the reason for a distinction between the two degrees. They should just make them MD’s unless they choose to stay a DPM….same job same education
I totally agree with Eddy. Why isn’t podiatric medicine just a fellowship for MD’s/DO’s?
I just want to say that there’s a reason why podiatrists are called podiatrists. They are not eligible for MD/DO presidencies because they are not capable of doing what MDs/DOs do. All you guys can say such and such, monkeys are not human!!
There is a push for podiatry school to be equal to allopathic school. Its called Vision 2015. There are orthopods that specialize in the foot/ankle as well. Many people say podiatry is medicine’s best kept secret: private practice, specialization early on, etc. A few reasons why people go to pod school: A lot of foot/ankle problems can be fixed in one office visit. Someone comes in with a problem, and walk out with no problem. It is a fast rewards system. All podiatrists are surgeons and do surgery. While people say the scope is small, show me another doctor that sees all age ranges from infant to geriatric and treats all problems from dermatology to biomechanics. Thus, each day is different in the office, as opposed to doing the same physical or doing the same surgery every day.
I am going to be a bit anal and instruct you on the correct use of the word, “physician”. A physician is one who is trained first in general medicine. Any of the medical specialists can lay claim to being, “physicians” because we are all initially trained in the practice of general medicine.
Podiatrists, Chiropractors, Optometrists, and other healthcare providers do not qualify to be called physicians in the truest definition of the word. You are trained as specialists from the beginning and do not receive a sufficient education in general medicine to lay claim to the title of “physician”.
If you wanted to be referred to as such, then perhaps you should have gone to medical school.
DPM = Didn’t Pass (the) MCAT
This is specifically for surewhynot, the ignorant f***. I want to know where you go to school for you to feel so high and mighty. Many of my classmates in the pod program got into MD or DO schools. I can’t speak for the whole class, but most of us chose the profession for what it is. I’m sure there are those select few that chose it because they didn’t get into the MD/DO programs, but most of them don’t make it through anyways. I think we end up being better doctors because we specialize from the start. At my school, we take classes with the “prestigious” MD students and get graded on the same scale. At the hospital I work with, the 1st year pod residents teach the 3rd year ortho residents. While you end up stuck in internal med (no offense to those that want to do int med) because you didn’t match in a top residency, which I’m sure you want since you are so full of yourself, we will be laughing while you bust your ass making less than my sister in high school makes. We will work hours practicing a specialty that you wished you had a chance at while still having a life outside of work. Go f*** yourself.
The only thing I would argue here is the comment that the writer made stating: “By the end of the second year I will have had a ton of interactions with patients, which is something unique to podiatry school.”. Patient interaction is certainly not unique to podiatry school. At our allopathic school (during years 1/2) we visit patients every week, practice H&Ps, see procedures, interpret radiographs, view patient charts, etc. We start seeing patients from day 1 and many allopathic programs in the US are the same so I’m not sure why the author feels this is something unique to podiatry school.
To just briefly comment on HouseDO’s remark, American Heritage Dictionary defines a physician as “one who is licensed to practice medicine, a medical doctor”. Podiatrists earn the title of “Doctor of Podiatric Medicine” which makes them a physician. I don’t see why you feel the need to draw such a distinct line between a podiatrist and the sacred title of “DO”. Podiatrists go through just as much training as most docs, that means they earn the right to be called physician. So get off your #@$# high horse, you’re not anything special because you got into a DO school.
The last statement applies to the rest of the wanna be doctors out there too. Come back and talk smack when you finish a decent residency.
Haha. As previously stated, DPM pre-clinical sciences are nearly identical to MD/DO. DPMs do rotations in.. well, you should look it up if you think you know so much about it. In fact, its not worth debating with an ill informed party because it accomplishes nothing. Thankfully, House is here to save the world.
One problem with podiatry is the lower entrance scores, as alluded to by the acronym master Ortho. Hopefully, those scores will improve in the upcoming years, and thus no longer allow MD/DO/Dent dropouts into podiatry.
Ignorant people suck: 1st year pod residents teach 3rd year ortho residents? I thought that’s what ortho attendings were for. Seems kind of silly to have a residents in charge of teaching residents.
Podiatrists are great! I’m applying to medical school right now, however, I worked as a podiatric medical assistant for two years with podiatric physicians. They have multiple surgical cases a week, work in wound clinics, have numerous consults per day, and hold office hours 4-5 days a week. Although I definitely respect their extensive knowledge and what they do, when asked why I didn’t apply to podiatry school… it just wasn’t for me. Most pre-meds don’t end up doing what they imagined after clinical rotations 3rd/4th year. I did not want to limit myself to the foot and ankle right off the bat. And to be honest, I simply don’t want to cut toe nails, shave callus’, or remove warts day after day. I don’t think it’s gross or anything, it’s simply not something I want to do for 15/25 patients I see per day. Yes, I will get to perform surgery 3-5 times a week, interpret x-rays 5-10 times a day, and examine mri’s multiple times a week, routine foot care is just something I want to do 15X a day. Not trying to sound like I think I’m better than it or anything cause I’m NOT. Health care is health care… I just rather do something else. Podiatry isn’t for everyone. Medicine in general isn’t for everyone…
Dear Ignorant people suck,
What a waste of time and energy to write such a hateful response. All I did was state the true fact, why getting all butt hurt? Perhaps you are a little insecure about your career decision? Really, think twice before you write something so arrogant like that again.
By the way I don’t ride horses
surewhynot,
You did not post the truth. All you posted was ignorance and you are still showing your ignorance. Come back when you know what you are talking about.
Once again… DPM’s CANNOT and DO NOT practice the same as MD/DO’s. DPM’s are not eligible to apply for MD/DO residencies because they don’t take USMLE/COMLEX. Therefore, DPM are not capable to do what MD/DO’s do (This is the true fact, please stop denying).
You guys can prove me wrong if you can find me a DPM that finished a MD/DO residency. Until then, don’t be a douche when someone tells you the truth.
Podiatrists complete their own residency, usually a 3 year residency. The 1st yr is much like an intern year where pods rotate through IM, EM, gen surg, etc. The 2nd and 3rd years are spent in gen surg, trauma, ortho, pods. As far as scope goes, pods do everything with the foot and ankle. That means bones, muscles, ligaments, tendons, nerves, vascular, skin, nails using medical, biomechanical, and surgical treatments. You are right. No MD/DO can match the treatment arsenal of a DPM. Show me an MD/DO that can do a DPM residency. Show me an MD/DO that can do everything a DPM can.
Of course, this comment section had to turn into another md/do vs. dpm argument. lol, will it ever end? It’s not about showing each other who can do another’s residency… the question is who would want to do the other residency? I don’t think many MD/DO’s would want to do a podiatry residency, and likewise podiatry residents all love what they do and would not choose to do an allopathic/osteopathic residency.
How do I know this? MD/DO’s didn’t go to podiatry school. If they really wanted to do the podiatry residency I’m sure they could have gotten into podiatry school and went that path. Like I said in my first post, I’m applying to medical school because I rather not cut toenails, shave calluses, or remove warts for 15 out of the 25 patients I see a day. Would I want to do a podiatry residency? No. Podiatry is not for everyone. (I have to add this in or else I feel like some defensive pod students are going to give me shit… And yes, there are a lot you lol. Yes I know that’s more than what you do… just read my first post)
Also, all the podiatry residents I talked to throughout the years genuinely LOVE what they do. It would be pretty damn hard to convince them to change career paths/residencies if it were possible.
Come on guys, podiatrists are as real as a doctor can be. So many qualified MD/DO’s refer to them DAILY for consults whether during rounds or office visits. All the millions of those “real” physicians must be retarted if they are relying so much on the “quack” podiatrist for help.
Sean, I think you’re confusing a Pod (podiatric “doctor”) for Orthopod (Orthopedic Specialist doctor). I’m 100% certain that the MDs/DOs refer to Orthopods for consults rather than regular Pods.
Shan (love the name btw),
No, I meant -Pod (podiatric “doctor”). I saw podiatry consults and saw referrals for podiatrists everyday for two years from many many many MD/DO’s. lol, no confusion sir. Even the ER had podiatric surgeons for consults. Obviously, foot/ankle related cases.
Surewhynot,
Who said anything about you riding horses???
“Show me an MD/DO that can do everything a DPM can.”
are you being serious? an md/do that has completed an orthopedic residency and foot/ankle fellowship can do everything a podiatrist can and more, having completed a more comprehensive residency and fellowship. such comments are uninformed and inflammatory, and hence do nothing to further useful discussion – please refrain from making such comments in the future.
Podiatry students have basically as rigorous and as general of a curriculum in the first 2 years as 1st/2nd year medical students. At my school we have almost all of the same classes together. They score as high or even higher on the exams we take with them. Then they go and do rotations, a general internship year and then complete their residency. They can prescribe drugs, perform surgery, and know the lower limb inside and out. Sounds pretty sound to me. Why do we have to compare them to MD/DO’s? They are two different ways to specialize in medicine, and both require a lot of training and commitment. Doctors refer to pods ALL THE TIME.
uhhhwtf,
Orthopods do not like to deal with diabetic feet and in the treatment of such people result in an 80% higher rate of BK amputation vs. a pod. Do orthopods prescribe orthotics? Do they treat using biomechanics? No…they mostly do surgery.
Everyone will specialize. People have to understand that no one treats the entire body anymore. It just so happens that pods specialize sooner rather than later. It is not a psudoscience or a cult or quackery…it is real medicine. Making statements of “100% certain that the MDs/DOs…” or “do not receive a sufficient education in general medicine…” without knowing what you are talking about is just foolish.
An observation I have made is that the majority of people who talk down to pods are DO’s. Just remember that in 1938 the Judicial Council of the AMA made this statement, “Chiropody(podiatry) is not a cult as is OSTEOPATHY, chiropractic, or Christian science, which have non-scientific bases of treatment, chiropody is an ancillary to medical practice in a limited field considered not important enought for the physician and, therefore too often neglected, and fills a gap in the medical profession?” Podiatry along with osteopathy have changed a lot since then but podiatry has ALWAYS practiced true scientific based “western” medicine.
According dr_j previous commet: “So get off your #@$# high horse, you’re not anything special because you got into a DO school.”
Well, I got into a D.O. school so your statement implies that I ride a horse. I’m surprised that you don’t think before you write.
REFLECT!!
To someone,
I also got accepted to 4 MD schools. So, you should generalize D.O. based on your flawed obervation.
surewhynot,
The term “get off your high horse” does not imply that you literally ride a horse.
surewhynot,
“So, you should generalize D.O. based on your flawed obervation”
Ahhh…so you are a DO. So my observations were correct that the majority of people who put down DPMs are DOs. Where is my flaw? Point it out.
what most of the people do not realize is that many of the people who chose podiatry chose it over medical school. I for one was accepted to allopathic, US medical schools, yet chose podiatry. I do not feel like i owe anyone an explanation for my choice.
Let’s all be constructive. We all are part of the medical profession. Perhaps one the main reasons our health care system is splitting at the seams is because we have become so stratified in the way we treat other medical professions. We are all in the same boat and chose a profession in the medical field not to make us feel holier-than-thou or more prestigious, but for the benefit of the public at large. For those who feel it necessary to put down other professions to make yourself feel better and feel more important, your missing the whole point of your medical education and I feel extremely sorry for your future patients.
this is so stupid. pods are great. god bless their efforts. i teach them sometimes and they seem to really love what they do. It is correct to say they treat a vast range of things. there are very few specialties in medicine dealing with derm, ortho, rheum, surg. i don’t know if i were a pod, i would not listen to any of this crap. if it is mainly from DOs you can rest assured the comments are almost certainly stemming from some strange DODO inferiority complex!
I decided to go to Podiatry because I can’t get into MD schools. I would’ve applied to D.O. schools if I knew much of it. However, since people are beating up D.O.’s like this, I’m pretty damn happy with my decision!
Great. Another one of these… MD>=DO>Carib. MD>>>>>>>>DPM.
Surewhynot: That was directed at someone else, if you would have read the post you would know this. I’m surprised you don’t read before you write. Was taking the VR section not a requirement at your school?
Sorry, I’m in a psd off mood if anyone can tell and reading posts like this where people are trying to prove their career choice somehow makes them superior is just annoying.
It’s frustrating to think that these are some of the types I’m going to have to work with for the rest of my life.
And although I’m sure it feels good to say you got accepted into 4 MD schools… you didn’t.
I have been a member of this forum for a little while now, and it is true, the majority of D.P.M. bashers are D.O.’s. I was accepted at three different D.O. schools, and they were the only D.O. schools that i applied to. I am a student at O.C.P.M. because i thought Podiatry was more interesting. What makes D.O. students soo insecure that they feel the need to step on our heads??? I don’t feel the same way about D.O.’s, as a matter of fact, i made sure that my primary care provider was a D.O.; why, because i have always believed in the osteopathic philosophy. In addition, I do not see any disparity between a D.O. and an M.D., so why do you look down on us???
Kind of like how many dpm students say they chose podiatry even though a lot of their classmates and them got accepted into MD and DO schools; they didn’t.
To dr_j:
I got a 11 on VR thank you very much.
Give me your e-mail address and I will send you a scan my acceptance letters (only two sent out snail mails).
And YES, I will be the type physician that you will work with… and thanks to you all hardcore-pro-DPM’s, DPM’s will always be on my blacklist.
Deal with it
For those of you who are cool with making these students MD’s: would you want to give an MD to an orthodontist?
surewhynot:
drj70229@gmail.com
surewhynot: Well that’s unfortunate. DOs need help from podiatrists and likewise podiatrists need help from DOs. Being a team player and the ability to work well with other specialties is a big part of what health care is all about. Somehow you were able to trick your DO school into thinking that you understood this concept and they mistakenly accepted you. I suggest you learn this lesson early on in your career, however, otherwise you’ll have a difficult ahead of you if you feel like there are specialties in medicine you can “blacklist” and still be a functional part of the team.
Dear Ignorant People Suck,
Stop being a little b i t ch. MD/DO is better in most ways than Podiatry because they actually treat diseases. If a person were to pass out, you wouldn’t know what the f u ck to do because all you do is treat the feet. Please, get a life.
I am not saying Podiatry is bad. But to say it’s better than an MD/DO? WTF. Give me the sh it that you are smoking because that crap must be really strong.
- The King
Thank you LeRoyd
LONG LIVE THE KING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LeRoy,
You are oversimplifying. Take that same situation and add in an orthopod. The orthopod wouldn’t know what to do with the person who passed out either. Neither would a dermatologist or a radiologist.
The whole point of medicine is to do what’s best for the patients. Bottom line.
I’m a DPM resident, and we consult vasc surg, FP/IM, cards, plastics, infect dz, etc etc so that we can put our skills together. Those services also consult us. It’s all a matter of letting everyone do what they are best trained for. Medicine is constantly getting more advanced and highly specialized, and as was said, nobody knows it all anymore.
As for the “patient passed out”: Well, yeah, I’m ACLS certified and I’d have a basic idea of how to handle medical emergency situations. Would most specialists – family med doc, pathologist, dermatologist, radiologist, ENT etc etc – be able to run a cardiac arrest code as well as a seasoned ER doc, ICU doc, or anesthesiologist who deals with such codes weekly/daily? Nope, they wouldn’t, because the specialists don’t use those skills as often. Likewise, those ER or ICU docs wouldn’t perform foot and ankle diagnostics and surgery as well as a trained DPM, and they might not even try… they’d just consult us for those types of cases, and we’re glad let them do what they do best. It’s all a matter of training and skill. You are what you repeatedly do.
As for F&A orthos compared with pods, there are many good (and not so good) F&A surgeons which come from either training model. It’s all a matter of training level, hard work, experience, and possibly subspecialty (pediatric F&A surgery, diabetic F&A surgery, trauma F&A surgery, elective F&A surgery, etc). I would simply say that the foot deserves its own dedicated surgeons due to small and complex anatomy + biomechanics, and I would emphasize that a well trained F&A specialist can help a lot of patients.
For those still in undergrad/grad, you might find that during residency training, you are a bit too busy with patient care to have these ego disputes? Regardless, GL to everyone with their undergrad/grad/residency/etc training and career choice…
Seth – I agree with everything you posted except when you said “nobody knows it all anymore”. You obviously haven’t met surewhynot. He will one day be a DO and as such will not need to consult a lowly podiatrist who knows nothing of cranial therapy and manipulative medicine.
Sorry but I have to chip in here. As a person who spent 2 years at Podiatry school and am now a 3rd year at an MD school in my home state (California) I am appalled at some of the comments other ‘professionals’ and students non-podiatry are making about the field, these people are simply ignorant haters. Podiatry is not ripping on your field but you seem to rip on them with knowing little about it. I can tell you first hand that I found podiatry school equally as challenging (if not more challenging in some classes) then my MD school. MD was harder in some courses too but overall I found the first 2 years basically the same with both institutions. What really surprized me is we didn’t even learn about the foot we just did our basic sciences. I took and passed the boards for both, and once again, pretty equal. So I can first hand tell you what the experience was like.
Unlike dentistry or optometry (which I am not disrespecting), podiatry schools teach you to be a physician first, a podiatrist second. This was stressed to us so many times and that we have to understand the whole body before even touching the feet. They also do a 3 year surgical residency. Let me repeat that, they do a 3 year surgical residency! So get a clue here: NO ONE who is going to come close in the amount of knowledge of the foot and ankle as a podiatrist, they are truly the specialists in their field. And instead of knocking them down, calling them names or what not, let’s welcome them to the team.
Some of you may be asking why did I change schools? Because I thought podiatry was what I wanted. I always thought I wanted to be a surgeon and figured podiatry would be an easier way to become one but I was wrong. Yeah I found out late in the game that I wanted nothing to do with surgery and I couldn’t stand the site of doing a 3 year surgery residency in something I didn’t have my heart in. So I transferred out and will be going into something I feel I am more passionate about (Radiology).
I am also a dpm student that transferred into a US md school and the two board exams are NOT the same in difficulty. Are you serious? After reading that statement I seriously think you are trolling. Also, in retrospect, the rotations throughout pod school seemed so watered down. I have to give it to you though, dpm’s do know their S*** when it comes to the foot.
The reason I transferred was because I simply was not happy. I hated the fact that after spending all the classroom time learning gross anat., phys., watered down core rotations other than podiatry (non-pod attendings knew we would never use what they taught), and a bread&butter surgery residency at a subpar hospital for 3 years(won’t give name
) I will still be cutting piles of toe nails and shaving calluses. I understand someone has to do it, but I did not go to school to spend 70% of my time doing this. I cut enough nails throughout pod school and residency. We learned a lot in school, but in practice… that’s another story. Surgery is great and all, but you won’t pay the bills with only podiatric sx reimbursements. Every dpm I worked with & my attendings did surgery a few days a week and spent the rest of their time cutting nails and etc. I hated the idea that I worked so hard to cut toe nails.
These DOs and MDs (supposed) are very angry on this thread. Most of these guys go into FP or internal medicine by which I would hate to be in right now. You will be struggling to repay your loans. some of these podiatry bashes are ortho hopefuls that probably won’t make it because they are at the lower tier of their med school class and hence take their frustrations out with the pods on here. Crushed ego, fear of the future, lil’ d*ck equates to internet bashing.
This seems to be a recurring theme is healthcare today. Everyone wants the prestige, benefits, reimbursements and pride that comes along with being a physician without putting in nearly the hard work. Optometrist now call themselves optometric physicians, we also have chiropractic physicians as well as podiatry physicians, audiologists have proclaimed themselves the primary are of hearing disorders, nurse practitioner and nurse anesthetist are getting doctoral degrees in English and introducing themselves to patients as doctors. The term “physician” means nothing nowadays. I don’t even call myself a physician anymore because I feel the need to be more clear to my patients to what exactly I do. I am training to be an internist.
Yes, I do call podiatry consults and I do send my patients to an audiologist and optometrist but not because I think that my MD/DO counterparts lack the expertise to deal with these patients. But because I know that a orthopedic surgeon dose not want to deal with issues where his expertise and time get wasted. I don’t send my patients to an ophthalmologist for a pair of glasses not because an ophthalmologist does not know how to refract but because he probably dosent want to waste his time doing something that is repetitive and for which exists a trained professional (an optometrist). ENT dose not want to sit there all day doing hearing evaluations when you can train anyone to do those. So there is a need for these professions in our current healthcare landscape but does that mean that this gives these professions the right to call themselves physicians? Lets for a minute take out all these professions from the current equation. This would lead to a lot more work for us MD/DO’s but would we be incapable of doing what these professions do?. Patients will still be able to get wound care, foot and ankle surgeries, prescription glasses and hearing evaluations. There are many developed nations where there is no podiatrist, optometrist and other rists but still have medical systems with medical care from head to toe. Now take out all the MD/DO’s from the equation. So now how many podiatry physicians, optometric physicians, chiropractic physicians are confident that they will be able to run ER’s, ICU’s, Surgery suites, Primary care clinics and General medical floors.
But of course since I am an internist and writing this then I must be disgruntled because I could not get into derm, ortho, anesthesia, ophtho, ENT residencies. All the cardiologists, gastroenterologists, intensivists, pulmonoligists, rheumotolgists, nephrologists and other gists are all disgruntled cause they had to internal medicine because they were in the bottom tier of their medical school class. The internists are also upset cause they are hospitalists, have good lifestyles, make 300,000 and poor FP’s they get no respect even after they work in ER’s, deal with life threatening emergencies day in day out also become hospitalists.
But f$%# it, lets just all be physicians and one big happy family.
Went to pod school b/c could not get into med school. simple enough
Happy,
I agree. Everyone wants to be a physician with all the available routes these days.
Although Podiatry has it’s own unique role in the health care system, let’s call a spade a spade and just admit their arguments are often hypocritical.
Argument #1: We are anatomical specialists like dentists. Ok, but at least dentists don’t consider themselves physicians. “No, but we take all the classes like gross anat, pharma, and etc.” Yes, but so do dentists. They know the entire scope also. “Yes, but we have rotations.” Yes, watered down rotations… Many podiatry students admit it. You should too.
Argument #2-1: MOST of my classmates and myself love podiatry and wanted to be a podiatrist since I was younger
Argument #2-2: MOST of my classmates and myself got into MD and DO schools but CHOSE podiatry.
Argument #2-3 (applicable for those who took the DAT): I Chose podiatry.
If you’re stance for podiatry is so strong and 100% CHOSE podiatry from the get go, why the hell did you take the DAT? You obviously wanted to go to dental school. For those who always say they and “MOST” of their classmates got into MD/DO schools, Why even apply to medical school if you aren’t going to go since you’ve already made up your mind on podiatry? Let’s face it, no one spends $1000+ on AMCAS, AACOMAS, and secondaries just to see if they’ll get in and then go to podiatry.
Argument #3-1: When I was in undergrad I shadowed a lot of doctors like internists, general surgeons, cardiologists, derm, and etc. and I didn’t really like any of it. But when I shadowed a podiatrist, I was amazed and really loved it. OK, if you shadowed all those docs above and didn’t like ANY of it, maybe medicine isn’t for you. Those are the bread and butter/foundation of medicine and clinical practice. What turned you on about the podiatrist so much? All the nail clippings on the ground next to the callused skin? Like someone said above, yes they do surgery, but most of their cases and largest reimbursements don’t have anything to do with surgery. Thus, you saw mostly non surgical procedures when you shadowed and thought it was awesome!
Argument #3-2: I want to be a surgeon. Wake up! Like I said earlier, majority of the cases in practice are not surgical(not talking about an ingrown toenail removal). Only about 1 out of 10-15.
Summary complete.
I hope all of you haters realize that many pods are partners in orthopedic practices. That should say something.
Yeah I don’t buy the argument that ” I got into md/do schools but choose podiatry”. The only folks I think go only podiatry are ones whose parents are podiatrists.
I already said that orthapedic surgeons do not waste their time clipping toe nails. That is why they hire podiatrist.
Also because podiatrists are hired and sign a contract generally for a lot less than an MD/DO foot and ankle specialist. Told by multiple dpm’s. Take it or leave it, but it happens all the time. Pay the pod less, more money saved. An MD/DO foot&ankle specialist costs too much.
yes, MD/DO’s win again
Surewhynot.
I’m not sure why you say such things..this wasn’t a contest that you’ve just won. You need to put more thinking into your posts. As a future Physician you will be part of many debates and discussions.
Definately a well deserved doctor in my book people:
-basic science pre reqs (organic chem, physics, bio, gen chem) for admission
-MCAT requirement (only a few schools don’t do this and they are changing it)
-4 years of medical school (yes, “Podiatric MEDICAL SCHOOL”)
-Multiple board exams
-3 years surgical RESIDENCY
-thus hospital rights to perform surgery (if you don’t consider this a biggie than I give up)
The field has (and still is) drastically changed for the better and it is not what it used to be 10+ years ago. And just because someone went into podiatry doesn’t mean they were declined from MD schools. Grow up. The field is very hands on and specialized, diverse in its work nature (wound care vs surgery vs C&C, etc) offers great hours, and pays very well…and with the growing rate of obesity and foot problems I don’t see it going anywhere but up. How is that for wanting to go into podiatry?
Dear someone,
Of course an orthopod, derm, and radiologist would know what to do when a person passes out – what do you think they learn in med. school and their first year of residency where they have to do internal medicine?
Granted, they might not know in every case, but probably a crapload more than a podiatrist!
Happy-
I really don’t see it as the ‘hiring’ of a pod by an orthopod in the kind of practice I’m referring to. They are a PARTNER in a practice. Sure they may get paid less, and yea they may do less desirable jobs or one’s that require less skill at times, but they are very necessary procedures and the pod is the specialist in most cases. The orthopod simply does *different* procedures. Clipping toenails? Ok, that kind of stuff is the bread and butter, but I’ve had foot surgery several times, all done by a podiatrist.
LeRoy,
What do you think pods learn in pod school and in 1st year residency when they rotate through emergency medicine and internal med? But does that mean they know enough to be 100% sure that they are providing the best treatment? No. That’s why you would leave it up to the specialists in that area.
I would hate to be classmates with many people here. I would flat out hate a few of you………I would even try to break you down into feeling like a hopeless loser so you can gain some fricken insight into life.
A foot doctor is an expert in the feet. Who gives crap if a foot doctor isn’t an MD or a DO. For crying out loud, they do a three year SURGICAL RESIDENCY SO THEY CAN PERFORM SURGERY. For any of you pre-med derma and plastic surgeon wannabes, you will be hatting your life very soon as you have to settle for peds and hate the rest of your life as you can’t quite because you are over two hundred thousand dollars in debt.
At the end of the day, a podiatrist takes care of feet. Why is that any better or worse than being a doctor that is an expert in the brain or the heart?
For crying out loud, people have foot problems. Someone needs to treat them.
I would slap a few of you across the face so fast I would hope you cry to your mommy and daddy because someone stood up to your brain washed stupidiy.
I am truly embarrassed for just having read this monstrosity of a comment board. I think SDN should take it down simply for the unprofessional degradation of what was a fantastic and encouraging article.
The comments have been far more entertaining than the article itself. Thanks to everyone who contributed to my study breaks over the last few days!
In all seriousness, the original article was quite good, and I would say that it gave me a greater respect for DPMs. And as for everyone else, you’ve just made me more satisfied with the direction I chose. Thank you Joseph Baker and everyone else for sharing your testimonies.
Seriously people. I am a DPM resident, I know that means I am a retarded nail clipper in many of your books, but I digress.
I just got back from the ER to evaluate and treat a bimalleolar fx of a 37 y/o female with PVD, IDDM, HTN and peripheral neuropathy. Oh and I know how to treat all those conditions the patient has other than the ankle fracture. I am required to treat the whole patient, not just the foot and ankle. Do you know that that foot did not just show up to the ER by itself, it was attached to a frickin’ person, holy crap! And I have to know their allergies, medical hx, whether or not I can cast her because of risk of DVT, edema, you know other medical things.
At my hospital we a one happy little family the ER chief is a DO who oversees many MD practitioners, yee gads is he qualified to do that???!!!
DPM, DO, MD, we need to stop fighting amongst ourselves about whose *ick is bigger. Get over it, in the end we are all doctors, we fix people! Either learn to play nice with others, shut your mouth and shun those you find inferior to you, or get out! The landscape of medicine is changing and if we, as a conglomeration of medical providers do not band together for ourselves and for patients we will soon see our personal choices taken away and we can all just do what we are told by some bean counter higher up (who by the way are usually nurse practitioners who have a masters in health care management.)
Was that last sentence really necessary? Can’t we all just get along? Caring for the patient is our primary goal right? Who care’s if she’s a np w/ a masters. Does she care less about the pt?
Yes and no. Yes because I am just showing that it really doesn’t matter what degree you hold, many other specialites regulate healthcare application. No because it can be construed as looking down on NP’s (who by the way I work with daily in the ER and clinics and think are great).
I always find it interesting that dentistry never comes up in these discussions. It’s really a testament to how successful the ADA has been over the years; dentists have a part in our lives just like family practitioners do. Nobody questions their legitimacy or says things like, ‘Oh, we have dentists because oral MDs don’t wanna clean teeth…’ it never even enters people’s minds.
That’s because dentists don’t claim to be physicians.
“Why I Chose Podiatry School?”
because you couldn’t get into medical school. I’m not trying to troll, either…just speaking the truth.
Majority of negativity against podiatrists are not because they claim to be physicians. A lot of what I have heard are:
1: not doctors
2: do not practice medicine
3: only clip toe nails
4: only do simple surgery
5: the extent of surgery that pods do are hang nails
6: no MD or DO send their patients to pods
7: everything a DPM does an MD or DO can do.
8: cannot prescribe meds
9: do not treat diseases
Whether DPMs are physicians…
Argument 1: Did not go to med school.
Counter argument 1: 1 DPM school takes many classes with MDs. Another takes all 1st year with DOs. 2 take all of 1st and 2nd with DOs.
Argument 2: Do not do the same rotations.
Counter argument 2: only rotations pods don’t do are psych and ob/gyn which I hear is changing and the 2 schools I mentioned earlier do all the rotations that DOs do.
Argument 3: rotations are watered down.
Counter argument 3: Maybe so but this is the fault of the attending…many attendings feel that “oh pods won’t need to learn this so whatever…I don’t care about teaching you”. And this cannot be said about every attending and every rotation. And this is not something instructed to the hospitals by the schools.
Argument 4: scope of practice is limited to foot and ankle / leg. Cannot treat the whole body.
Counter argument 4: Even MDs/DOs specialize. No one treats the whole body. The specialty you choose determines the training you receive which also determines your scope of practice. A FM or EM cannot do ortho surgery or general surgery. An ortho cannot do gen surgery or neurosurgery. A neurosurgery cannot do derm. No one but optho can refract and prescribe glasses or contact lenses. And lastly a general ortho cannot do rear foot reconstructive surgery and are limited to a number of forefoot surgery.
“unlimited” practice rights are limited by training.
Personally I do not care if DPMs are considered physicians or not because it does not affect my skills or training. It will not make me a better podiatrists. But I do care when ignorant people say any of the #1-9.
I dont understand why it is always the DOs that feel it is necessary to cut down other medical fields. One would think that from the history of Osteopathic medicine that they would be at the forefront of accepting a multi-disciplined approach to medical care. DOs only within the last few decades obtained parity with MDs, why do they feel it is necessary to tear down a growing field that in many respects is following a similar path Osteopathic medicine took 30 years ago.
All it took was a simple article about Mr. Baker’s decision to attend podiatry school to cause this uproar.
Personally, these posts are ridiculous but sadly I read through these comments. Obviously, people need to worry about themselves and stop worrying about prestige and what other people think of them. I, as an Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon, just finished my residency at a level 2 trauma center that happens to have a Podiatry residency, IM, Gen Surg, and Transitional. The resident that was awarded the “Outstanding Resident Award” during graduation was in Podiatry – obviously well respected within the hospital- the degree means nothing, its the quality of doctor you are that matters. This physician vs. non-physician argument is ridiculous. People go into professions based off what they feel they will enjoy and thrive in. Myself, I went to dental school because I wanted to be an Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon- yes I had a 4.0 gpa in college, yes I could have gone any route I wanted to but I decided on dentistry and ultimately Oral and Maxillofacial Surgery. I am a physician – no; Do I care? No because as an Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeon I do my own surgery and I have a license to deliver Deep Sedation/General Anesthesia in my office, treat any type of facial trauma and get to do some amazing surgery. Just remember, a degree does not validate the doctor.
Wow.
I’ve certainly found these posts interesting. I am a future doctor, and I find it a little disheartening that other doctors would try to rip on other fields. I was sort of hoping more people would be more interested in becoming a DO/MD/DPM etc. because it’s what they wanted to do. I personally could care less who wants to call themselves a physician. If you have a competent education and treat patients then I have no problem calling you a physician and I look forward to working with you. I’m not interested in being a doctor for the prestige or because I’m the only profession that can be called a “physician”, it’s just simply what I want to do. I have to wonder why other people seem to care so much who gets the distinction of being called a physician? I sincerely believe in all fields there are highly skilled individuals with wonderful training. Some might have gone into the field because they couldn’t get into MD school – who cares? They still receive rigorous training and do a great service. End of story.
Dear Someone,
Please mind my rude comments. I was only fired up because some of the remarks people made (particularly that of Ignorant people suck).
- The King
Man you people have some chips on your shoulders huh? Everyone goes into specific fields for specific reasons. Just because some people didn’t go to med school doesn’t mean they couldn’t get in…Ever think that maybe some people don’t WANT to become doctors? Hmm? Never thought that? Hmm?
Obviously everyone here cares more about prestige and salary instead of their patients they help everyday. Maybe most of you should have become real estate brokers or went into stock. We don’t need any of your non-compassionate bullsh*t here.
Yeah, there’s a huge correlation between sdn posts and desire for patient care. Your last sentence wasn’t very compassionate so take your bullshi*t outta here. Jesus Christ! It’s just the internet.
I often wonder if the sentiments expressed on this comment section are what people are thinking and wanting to say (in real life) but do not because of social norms. It’s really easy to post anonymously. Makes you wonder about the true nature of people. Medicine should be a compassionate field. But obviously people do go into it for reasons that are other than altruistic. DPMs have their niche in medicine. Why can’t people accept that? I live in Arizona, a HUGE retirement state. There aren’t enough orthopedic doctors to treat this demographic. And some of them really don’t care/prefer the foot and ankle. If DPMs have a solid education, backed by a solid surgical residency, why all the negative flack? And in regards to cutting nails, you can always hire someone to cut nails for you if you’d rather focus on more complicated cases (of course this depends on how successful your business is). Every medical field has its faults. I would not want to do pelvic exams day in and day out. Nor would I want to make rectal exams, deal with phlegm, stare into mouths, operate on eyes a common occurrence for me. There’s a field of medicine for everyone. Let’s support each other.
I just wanted to say that I thought the article was well written and thoughtfully constructed. I go to Podiatric Medical school and take the same classes as DOs. I even have DOs in my study group. We get along great and I wouldn’t trade it for anything. Some of the comments on here are ignorance at its finest. I agree with some of the last posters that it shouldn’t matter what specialty you choose, we should all be able to get along. I chose a profession that deals with surgical cases, sports injuries, a growing patient base, salary above $150-250K, and working hours that are manageable and predictable. Enough said. Again, great article.
FootDoc: Your salary estimates are probably a little overstated. Median podiatrist salary reported by US Department of Labor = $108K. I realize a google search may report an AVERAGE pod salary of $150-250 but you have to keep in mind average salary reports generally do not represent what the average person makes. And many salary reports you find online get their data from surveys which are pretty unreliable. I’m not saying you can’t make $150-250+ as a pod, just don’t think that’s what the average pod makes because it isn’t.
I think someone brought this up earlier and I was not really satisfied with the response so I wanted to bring it up again.
1)Is there anything that a podiatrist is trained or certified to do that someone who has completed an orthopedic residency and a foot and ankle fellowship cannot do?
2) Are there any extras that the MD mentioned above can offer that the podiatrist can not? If so, what are they?
I would look this up myself but I am lazy and studying for step 2 so if anyone has the info please let’s hear it. I think the answer to these two questions will resolve a lot.
I basically want to know if podiatrists provide an indispensable non-replicable specialist service that nobody else is trained to do – which you might argue is what medical specialties generally are, or are they just a cheaper and more available (demand and supply) option to provide a service that some MDs (the fellow i described) are currently able to provide (just like PAs and NPs) just asking . . .
if so, i would like to know what podiatrists in this forum think about restructuring the process such that podiatry becomes an MD/DO residency like Ob/gyn or IM. I mean if you’re basically taking the same classes as med students now as you say you do then what is the difference really? would you have any objections to this? so basically anyone who loves podiatry and always wanted to become a podiatrist, apply and get into an allopathic or osteopathic med school, take the USMLE step 1/step 2/comlex and apply and match podiatry. that cool with you or would you be against that? why? just curious . . .
I also want to address what I think is at the root of all this fighting at least from the MD point of view. First of all, being a doctor/physician does not make you better than anybody else. Everybody answers their own call and follows their own dreams so you cannot put anyone down for what they CHOSE to do (and i do believe most people choose). however, this is where i think the sentiment comes from
- no matter how you slice it and this is not about being better or smarter just facts, it is harder to get into med school than podiatry school. i also believe it is harder to get through medical school than podiatry school and that the licensing exams med students have to take are more difficult than those taken by podiatrists. so, like anything else in life, when people sweat and toil to attain something that is more difficult they expect some reward, some . . .distinction. that’s what the whole “physician” beef (and maybe insecurity) is about i think. i don’t care if it’s business, sports, politics, academia, entertainment (and if you put yourself in this position, i think you’ll understand even if you don’t agree) nobody wants to take the tougher harder bloodier road and then at the end entertain suggestions that there is equivalence in any way between you and someone whose path was not as rough. i can respect differences and every one plays their role in this life but the suggestion of equivalence, both real and (i admit) sometimes imagined, is just not something many “med students” are prepared to hear.
p.s. – my award for best post so far goes to Sweet John
Confuscius.
You bring up many good questions. I don’t think I am the best person to answer some of your points, but I would like to try based off of my own research.
I believe in the past, pod schools were easier then med school. However, as more med schools integrate pod students in their existing 1-2 year classes with the regular med students, this view is slowly going away.
Yes pod schools are easier to get into based on gpa and mcat requirements. Some believe this is based on lack of popularity, not having the md/do designation, being required to specialize from the get go and the stigma that it is easier to get into.
The norm now is to institute 3 year surgical residencies that focus on the foot and ankle. Orthopedic physicians must complete a 5 year residency that focuses much more than the two areas mentioned. To then specialize in the foot and ankle, orthopedic physicians would then go onto to complete a 2 year fellowship. That’s 7 years versus 11 years… That’s a large difference. Especially for a person who has no interested other than the foot and ankle.
So yes, it is easier to get into, but is it any easier to get out of? This is grossly debatable if the two groups are taking the same courses. Once in residency, pod students are not just taught by dpms but by md/do’s. There is one residency I am extremely interested in where first year pod residents are treated the same as first year general surgery md/do residents. In this case is it any easier to finish? Not in my humble opinion.
Can orthopedic physicans do what a podiatrist does? Yes I believe so, especially if they choose to sub specialize in the foot and ankle (I have heard and read about fellowships). Are there many of them? Not in the state I live in (Arizona). Is there a need for podiatry where I reside? Yes, extremely so as AZ is a huge retirement state, and has a fairly active population… and diabetic population.
I believe if more orthopedic residencies opened up, this could hurt the growth of dpms…. but i don’t see this as a likely event. I shadowed at an orthopedic clinic, one that had 5+ physicans (can’t remember off the top of my head). But they focused mostly on shoulder, spine and hip surgery… they did virtually no diagnosis/treatment/surgery of the foot and ankle. When I asked why, the gist of the response was that it wasn’t as lucrative and they would rather refer the patient to someone who had more experience in this area. And yes, that usually meant referring them on to a podiatrist.
Maybe dpms will eventually be swallowed by md/do’s if podiatric surgery residencies were opened up to md/do’s as well. But as long as pod schools exist, I can’t see this happening. There are just too many politics that are currently in place. And as it stands there is a need for them, at least in my state.
to hmmm – i don’t know if you can say that the integration is making that opinion go away. i can see anatomy, biochem, neuro, histo being integrated but i think it’s less likely to have pharmacology, microbiology and path fully integrated because as all the pods here point out, you are going into your specialty from day one while we have to have a general foundation of medicine because we don’t know our specialties yet so what would be the point then? i think it’s hard to believe it does not cross your mind or affect your approach to sit in a path or micro class with med students and know 100% you will never ever need to use 90% of this. it’s not different from a fourth year med student who just “coasts” through the last 3 or 4 rotations of med school knowing for sure she will be a radiology resident (good hardworking student though she may be), it’s human nature. also, at the end of the day the pod student does not have to reckon with the juggernaut that is the usmle step 1 and residency competitiveness does not factor for you as much during those first two years as it might for say the ortho/ent/uro/plastics/derm hopeful who is trying for straight As and a 250 to improve his/her chances of getting in.
i agree with you though, if a service is needed and it takes 7 vs 11 yrs to train someone to provide that service then it’s a no-brainer. i think you’re also right that politics would not allow pod surg residencies to become md/do programs. my main push for integration is that this “exception” is only made for the foot. why dont optho or hand or breast surgeons or urologists start from day 1 in a seperate school and just do their specialized residency? i think it’s because medical education ignored the foot earlier on, now that we all see how imporant it is, should it not become an MD/DO residency just like anything else.
Confucius -
The reason pods are separate from everyone IS what you stated. In the late 1700’s, chiropody was separate from medicine and surgeons, as the doctors of the time looked down on treating aliments of the foot. Lewis Durlacher pushed to have the profession regarded as its own branch of medicine, as barbers were also in the business of shaving a callus or two.
As for pharm, path, and micro. I agree with you; pods will never have to utilize the majority of information that we are taught in those lectures. However, I think that that sentiment is shared across all specialized doctors.
Competitiveness for residencies is just as prevalent in pod schools as it is in med schools. All pod residencies are not created equal, and there is a shortage in positions right now.
Although I can’t comment on the USMLE, pods do take a part I, II, & III. Pods are required to regurgitate the same minutia that our colleagues are. Most pod students study USMLE First Aid books, in their entirety, for boards (at least part I).
I disagree with your argument when you say that we can’t share any similarities or equivalencies with our MD/DO counterparts, because our classes are inherently different. I also disagree with you about med school being the gorier, most vile way of becoming a doctor. Pod students work just as hard as med students. While you guys are taking your general medicine classes with your basic sciences, we are taking a close replica of your basic sciences, along with our speciality courses.
Well said DC… It is also important to understand that podiatry school basic sciences are not “inherently different” from our colleagues. In our 2 years of Pathology (systemic) and General Medicine, we are taught by Pathologists, IM’s, etc. who are usually also on med school faculty. They teach us the same info, of course sometimes adding “you guys may not see a lot of this, but you have to understand it and recognize it when it presents, especially if you are doing a surgery and…” Our pharm classes are taught by pharmacists specializing in different areas, our Micro and Immunology is taught by a renowned scientist affiliated with the CDC… The only classes DPM’s teach us are like biomechanics, pod med, and podiatric radiology. It is a common misconception that pod students only study the feet from day 1. Honestly, I was shocked that we spend so LITTLE time on the foot. On average, we have maybe 2-4 CREDITS a SEMESTER of a class or two specific to podiatric medicine, and even those classes deal with pathologic manifestations in the foot of systemic disease just as much as local injury or biomechanical problems. While naturally we may not be as accountable later on for certain diseases related to gyno or ophthamology for example (even though we still learn them), we have to know inside and out the manifestations and etiologies of all the diseases relating to neuro, vascular, derm, rheumatic, endocrine, etc., not only because they frequently manifest themselves in the lower extremity, but because we prescribe medications to treat all of these conditions… I think that is something else many people do not realize, that we treat systemic conditions affecting the feet, not just problems intrinsic to the foot… thus we obviously would need to be grilled and drilled on EVERYTHING… Now my last point: I have the utmost respect for all the doctorate degrees associated with medicine. I think it is extremely immature and unprofessional to put down optometry, dent, pod, Osteopathic, or even certain specialties like IM, by characterizing those that are in them as less intelligent or less talented. It is a relief that most of us in these professions respect each others talents and areas of expertise… I hope that those who tend to “bash” or are prejudiced against each others’ professions will wise up and grow up by the time they enter practice… Legitimate questions, of course, are certainly appropriate, whereas deragotory comments clearly are not. I personally chose podiatry because I thought it was a cool, very family-friendly field where you treat a lot of interesting problems manifested in the legs and feet, where you can do a lot of cool surgeries, really help a lot of people ragain mobility…. Even in the cases where we are just trimming toenails and debriding calluses, we get to spend a few quality minutes with the patient getting to know them, teaching them about their feet, and when they leave, they feel a million times better every step they take… Ive always found it a very rewarding field, with a lot of variety… just like many fields in healthcare…
well said respectful!! thank u for posting something that finally makes sense and is truly respectful.
so i cant believe i just put my name down haha. go me.
to DC
“sentiment is shared across all specialized doctors. ”
- yes but until they know for certain they will be in that specialty, everyone’s attitude while the material is being presented (especially in first but even in second yr) is the same and that is learn general medicine, i “may” need to know this. pods on the other hand don;t have this issue. you “know” you are specializing from day 1 and my argument is that is has impact in the same way, we are less “gunner” in the latter half of fourth year when you “know” your specialty. i’m 100% sure you understood this argument before posting.
“Pods are required to regurgitate the same minutia that our colleagues are”
- come on now, you honestly think an attending on one of your IM clerkships will care if you don’t know what the risk factors for a hepatic adenoma are? i’m trying to have an honest and realistic discussion but I understand that when you’re arguing from a defensive position that can be difficult. do you think the average med student will get more or less heat from superiors for now knowing the “minutia” on their rotations than the average pod student? so where is the pressure? which is gorier? you really think it does not cross their minds that you won’t need to know most of this stuff and that they are just academic purists eager to fill you with all the medical knowledge they can. let’s talk real talk please. i was trying to be serious, this is getting silly now . . .
to respectful
“Legitimate questions, of course, are certainly appropriate”
okay, in a tertiary health care center, a guy comes in who has had their right foot amputated in the past hour. what role does the podiatrist play in this setting? (on average, so not what could or might happen but in most instances, what do you think will happen) because I keep hearing we do “EVERYTHING” with the foot. so you will perform the vascular surgery? reattach the nerves? bones? ligaments? tendons? and all this you can do after 3 yrs of residency? basically, if there are things regarding the foot that you cannot do or would not even be the primary person, I would like to know.
also, it doesn’t matter if you have bill gates teaching you a class on how to start a multi-billion dollar software company, the issue is do you care and why should you care? most students are not idealists, maybe you are. I am sure a school can hire nobel prize winners to teach any subject but that is not the point.
there is nothing derogatory in this but I don’t know why people keep dancing around arguments. nobody is denying you your place/niche/role/respect, it’s all yours and you have earned it. my only argument is that there are major differences that many pod students seem unwilling to accept – I am not extrapolating anything like inferior or less intelligent or whatever from these differences but I know that is what everyone is defensive about. you won’t acknowledge the differences because you are afraid of what they may be interpreted as. honestly, i can’t say I blame you because a lot of people do use these differences in that way
scope of practice for pods are different in most US states…most can’t even do foot or ankle surgery. just trim toenails. sorry.
anon 2,
are you mentally deficient in some way? really… really?
Confucius –
I cannot comment on the admonishment differences between podiatry students and medical students, nor would I be so bold as to try. When clinicians know that students have the same general understanding of disease processes, why would they not be held to the same standards as everyone else? I know of podiatry students who are pimped on the same level as all of the medical and osteopathic students that they rotate with.
“May” isn’t a definitive word, Confucius. I may have to know EVERYTHING I learn in pharmacology, as the lower extremity doesn’t exist in a space that is beyond the metabolism of CYP450, therefore changing the way you have prescribed a drug to our mutual patient. I may have to remember EVERYTHING I learn in pathology, as I rotate through multi-disciplinary hospitals that are aware of the systemic pathologies that I should have learned.
There is NO easy way of becoming a doctor anymore. If you don’t believe so, I would think you’re a bit delusional.
To Anon,
you clearly know nothing about podiatry… last time I checked, something like 44 states allowed surgery on the foot and ankle, and soft tissue up to the knee, some states even up to the hip… i know you don’t care, and you can’t even use correct grammar, but I am correcting you so that others do not share your ignorance… and thanks for saying “sorry” lol
Confuscius,
I think you raise some very logical points… by the way I am not defensive about your posts, and I am not dancing around your arguements, the post I left the other day was not specifically to you or anyone else, just my 2 cents… I can see why you may think that since our scope is limited to lower extremity, we would have no reason to know a lot about “hepatic adenoma” for example…. i know some of my classmates feel as you do about this… however we are taught info like this because we are responsible for all of that during residency. while you suggest that the attending docs couldn’t care less about if we knew a lot of systemic stuff, my conversations with residents over the past couple of years have led me to believe that pod students, at least in the high powered programs, are “pimped” just the same as medical students in all areas, and that the attending docs would get irritated if they they couldn’t perform at the same level… however, i am not a resident myself, and apparently neither are you, so we really can’t know for ourselves at this point… will pod students remember a lot of this stuff they won’t use throughout their whole lives… probably not… obviously you retain best what you use on a daily basis… I have an uncle who is an orthopod, specializing in spine, another uncle who is an ER doc, both say that everything they know and do now they learned in residency and fellowships… i don’t see how you or I will be any different… every doc does what they do, and each specialty is the best at what it does… in areas of overlap between specialties, then obviously comparison would have to be made on a case by case basis… I am confused as to why you think that you are trying to have a “realistic conversation” while some are just being “defensive”.. We are just telling you what our experience is… You know as well as I do that in today’s specialized health care environment, a lot of the details of the stuff you learn in med school you won’t directly apply much in your practice… however, you still have to do your rotations so you have to know it… we are no different than you, and so we learn a lot of stuff some might think is not applicable to our profession, but we do residencies and the same rotations, so do you think our schools would embarrass us and send us unprepared and ignorant into residency??
“you won’t acknowledge the differences”
Of course there are differences, we dont hit ophthamology or gyno as hard for example, but we kill lower anatomy, pathomechanics, lower arthropathies, etc. way more than you guys… i talked to a DO student the other day who didn’t know what Baxter’s nerve was… Im sure he has knowledge in other areas where I am ignorant, and thats fine since we have have totally different specialties. nobody knows everything.
Forgive the long post…
- Respectful
Well, I think you’re right about something I may have overlooked. At high power pod schools like you mentioned, expectations might be the same. I’d assume that is the standard most pod schools are aiming for and maybe it will be that way someday. I wouldn’t know but you would so I’ll take your word for it. My school does have a pod school and we only take anatomy with them (and score higher even on lower extremity exam) but for some reason they take many of the same courses we take but not with us, and my experience has been that their versions of our courses are less challenging so that’s part of where I’m coming from. So I still think most pod schools are like this even if not at the “high powered” ones. On average, I think med school is still more challenging until more pod schools get to where they are trying to be. Also you’re right we only recall what we use daily so I am not arguing about MD and DPM attendings, just students and on average if we are really under equivalent challenges and difficulties. We will all be professionals in our own Fields eventually.
– DC
don’t call me delusional, it’s not polite. You may be the best student in the country and know more medicine than every med student. Good for you. We all have been in school for a while so my argument is about human nature and not you, stellar student though you may be. I am going to try this for the third time – after match day most med students seem to put less effort in their rotations. Like my buddy said to me, “at this point, none of this matters. This is my argument DC. the day you matriculate you know you are specialist, and as a student myself, I can’t see the same level of enthusiasm and drive for stuff I will hardly need, compared to someone who until 3rd or 4th year thinks they really need to use. I’m not doubting you in your pod classes but seriously if I was a pod student, P450 inducing drugs can kiss my. . .
– Any Podiatry Student/Resident
I asked a question earlier about a guy whose leg gets chopped off. I am still curious to know the answer, you can scroll up and read it fully. DC can you help with that one?
it is obvious that podiatry students are inferior to medical students in terms of intelligence. grades and standardized test scores are there for a reason. however, depending on the effort put forth during training, they turn out to be quite similar in terms of clinical skill in their respective specialties.
there are internal medicine groups in my hospital. in a single group, there’s a guy who trained at harvard for undergrad, med school, and residency, a guy from india who trained in a dinky community hospital, and an american guy who went to the caribbean and did residency in a dinky community hospital. in terms of patient care, they are all equal, and this is the general concensus among all the surgeons in my department as well as other physicians i have spoken with. you will see this as the case with most medical groups in all specialties. take that for whatever it is worth.
The Case of a Pod Student…Why I Chose Podiatry
. Yeah, that sucked. Also, especially when it comes to routine foot care, or a particularly nasty ulcer (where u might see a patient weekly or every 2 wks), the doctors get to know their patients. It’s pretty much a gabfest while you’re working on a patient’s feet, and many patient’s tell u their life story. Some people may not like that (it can be interesting, boring, or flat out depressing)- I, of course, loved it. Most of the patients were elderly or middle aged with diabetes, but some also were younger with injuries that needed casting or surgery. I saw patients react with the good news of having an ulcer healed, and I saw patients break down and lose it when reality sunk in that they were likely going to lose part of their foot. I was shocked when we would find out that a patient had passed away from one of their other ailments (podiatric patients usually have diabetes, circulation problems, etc). Thus, I liked podiatry, and of course during my shadowing days I had found out that they also make six figures, which was cool with me. I felt it was a rewarding field with good hours (oh, and I forgot to mention that I am female who worked with a female doctor that had kids, so I’m sure she was a big influence on me), that I could do a variety of things (including surgery), that I was not going to have to be on call all of the time (yay!), and that I was going to get into a pod school as is, with no problem. Well, I was right, I got interviewed at what I thought was the best school very quickly and was accepted. I thought the interview was easier than my pre-med committee interview at undergrad, lwhich I actually wanted my interview to be harder (I was like, that was it? where were all the challenging questions?). Upon being accepted I knew that my GPA was way higher than average for acceptance into pod school, and my MCAT (much to my internal cringing) was about average. I honestly wish they would make it tougher to get in, but it was what it was. Many of my podschool counterparts have MCATs and GPAs lower than me, but they are very hard workers, but if you’re a good doctor, what does it matter? It doesn’t take a genius to be a doctor, there are actually some very smart doctors out there who are not considered to be good docs (dont care about patient, only money, no bedside manner, etc) I had friends that were accepted into med school, and I had friends that retook their MCATs and made it into med school. I decided that I didn’t want to do that, and that I was happy with going to podiatry school.Some may say I settled, but it had become what I wanted to do, I actually liked it. I know that’s hard for some people to understand, but in the end it’s about what you want, what you will be happy doing. That said, I’m in my third year now, and while I’m sure it is not as challenging as an MD program would be, but it has been far more difficult than I thought it would be, lol.
So, I had always wanted to do something in healthcare, but was never quite sure what I wanted to do. The typical story. Being Asian, my mom wanted me to be a doctor…naturally. I wasn’t sure if that was what I wanted to do, so when I enrolled at undergrad I was pre-nursing. My aunt, also asian and a pharmacist, called me weekly to convince me to do pharmacy, but my father is a pharmacist and I wasn’t the least bit interested. There were alot of turn-offs to nursing for me, so I switched to pre-med. Through most of college I still didn’t really know what I wanted to do, I also was debating doing dentistry, I just didn’t know what was the best fit, you know? I am a very happy person in general, very laid back, and I could see myself being happy doing almost anything in healthcare. I’ve never had any specific dreams of being a brain surgeon or anything like that. I was very involved, and a pretty decent student, graduating with a 3.7 GPA as a bio major at UT Austin (which is not bad, but it’s no 4.0, but arguably decent for med school). I must confess, I did not study for my MCAT (I looked over some practice passages, but time spent on it was very minimal compared to any class I took), and got an I-told-u-not-to-drink-those from the roommate when I got a 22. I knew this was no good for med school (very crappy score!), but I did not have that crazy sense of urgency to retake it. I didn’t have the MCAT freakout, but I’m not one to freak out. I do believe that if I were to study and put forth some effort into MCAT preparation that I would have done much better, and that I would have gotten into med school. Maybe not Harvard, lol, but there are some MD and DO schools that I would have made it into. Thus, I had a sucky MCAT score, and was not sure what I wanted to do about it.
An older friend mentioned podiatry to me, and I’ll be honest, I had never heard of it. So, I shadowed a podiatrist, and the first case I saw was a dude who was a fresh post-op from a transmetatarsal amputation. He had run over his foot with a lawn mower, and waited til it turned all sorts of colors before finally going to a doctor. This, is when I realized that podiatrists do surgery..*wha?!*…and I thought it was awesome! I did see alot of nail trimming of some funky nails and callus shavings, but I also saw some people with smelly, digusting, crazy holes on the bottom of their feet…and it didn’t bother me. I thought it was so interesting, I had no idea about woundcare. When a doctor would tell a patient about me being interested in podiatry (which at the time was only kinda true, lol), the patient would tell me all kinds of cheesy things about how they used to have an ulcer a few years ago and the doctor saved their foot, or how they couldn’t walk b/c they’re bunions were so bad (hehe, just sounds funny) but that the doctor had helped them be able to walk again and carry on with their lives. I know, total cheese, but I loved it. The podiatrist worked M-F 9-5, and had nothing but surgeries on wednesday. I went and watched a few, and I loved it. I thought the mix of surgeries, wound care, and more trivial stuff was a nice mix indeed. I eventually worked as a med assistant at that office over the summer, and found out that most of the nail trimming was the job of the assistant
Podiatrists are doctors of the foot and ankle, the end. To say that they are better than orthos at the foot and ankle would not really be a statement that could be made, because the orthos that specialize in the foot and ankle (not too many of these) know their share . That said, most orthos in general do not mess around with the foot and ankle region much, and at the podiatrist office that I worked at we often got many referrals from local orthos who simply did not want to deal with or were not as familiar in dealing with certain foot surgeries. Orthos do all kinds of surgeries, but when it comes to bunionectomies, who do you think does the most? Podiatrists. Does it make us better? No, but with certain conditions of the foot we have more experience b/c we deal solely with the foot and ankle. I think that is what some people are trying to say. Referrals may be looked at as one man’s trash being another’s treasure by some, too, lol. That bunion may not be a big enough deal for the ortho, but it can be a debilitating condition for a patient nonetheless. Podiatrists certainly have their own niche in the medical field, and yes, they are doctors too. Let’s be mature about this, is it really possible to be a surgeon without being considered a physician? Or is surgery just a hobby of a podiatrist? lol. Podiatrists are physicians of the foot, it is what it is. We may never have the glory of a cardiac surgeon, but let’s face it, this squabbling about MDs vs DOs vs DPMs helps no one, and the facts are that we will all have patients and situations when we will need to work together for the optimal benefit of the patient.
Bickering will get us nowhere, and it is really just a waste of time (what will it achieve?) and is a poor attitude b/c it takes focus away from treating patients. There are bigger things to worry about in healthcare! I am now done with my rambling, lol this is long as hell & I’m not editiing it so, I hope I helped at least one person gain insight into why I chose podiatry, as there were not as many rainbows and butterflies in my story as in the above article
Let us not lose sight, for we have the same goal
Podstudent,
I really liked your story. You are very honest and I respect your decisions completely.
I was not lying about scope of practice. Why hide this fact. Some podiatrists cannot do surgery in these states. Stop hiding the truth. Until there is a uniform scope of practice, there will be no respect for pods capabilities.
respectful you are not respectful. SORRY.
anon2,
Either you are lying or you pulled that information out of your ass. Show your sources.
And who are you to talk about respect? Are you a medical doctor or other health professional in the field or just another student?
All the DOs commenting negatively is cracking me up! I hate to tell you guys, but everyone has heard of podiatrists. Everyone has heard of MDs. No one in your entire hometown has ever heard of a DO! Get off your high horse because it’s actually very short… there is no prestige at all associated with a DO degree… but have fun explaining for the 5122nd time that you really are a “physician” and not a holistic herb-peddler.
anon2,
while podiatrists surgical scope may differ between some states, podiatrists can still do surgery in every state. in a few states, the ankle is not part of the scope, but joints distal to it are allowed… as i said before, MAINSTREAM podiatric medicine includes foot and ankle surgery, in like 44 states… i apologize if you think i am disrespecting you.. i am not sure why you have such a negative attitude towards our profession, and why you claim that we hide the truth, just because we point out the blatent flaws in your biased posts. you seem to be one who likes to be treated with respect, while being able to put others down.
abdullah ahmad,
i agree with almost everything you said, and i am glad that you pointed out that the amount of work put forth in clinical training is what determines the quality and skill of the doctor. i would only suggest to you however that using “blanket” and generalizing statements, such as “pod students are inferior to medical students in terms of intelligence” is pretty unfair. MCAT and GPA are not indicators of “intelligence” as much as they are of hard work… for example, my last 3 years of college i had a 4.0, where as the first 2 semesters i had no idea what i wanted to do, and i was young and immature and goofed off during that part of my college experience. i ended up graduating with a 3.5, thanks to 2 bad semesters (of very easy classes i might add)… i think i am probably as “intelligent” as the average medical student who had a 3.8 in college. I couldve gone to DO school, and some MD schools, but there wasnt a specialty i could think of that i wanted to do more than podiatry. Its just a great lifestyle, and family friendly, and interesting. The majority of podiatry students have the credentials to get in medical school somewhere, but honestly many chose podiatry simply because they didnt want to deal as much with death and dieing people.
Facts about pod vs MD/DO
Argument 1: Pod is just as competitive during training as MD/DO since they take same/similar classes and they work hard.
False – Competitiveness and toughness is all relative. Pods might take the same classes and think they work as hard, but they will never know how bad 1st/2nd year of med school is like unless they take both curriculum, so equating the two is nonsense. For those who say you take classes with MD/DO’s, that’s probably a sign that the med school is low low tier. Toughness is also associated with competitiveness. A high-tier med school will be tougher than a low-tier med school even though the curriculum is similar because most schools grade on a curve so the student in the harder school will have to study more than the easier school to stay on top of his/her class. Thus, med schools are innately tougher and more rigorous because their students are smarter (higher MCAT vs. avg Pod MCAT of low 20s) and thus the competition is higher making it tougher to succeed. Give me 50 pod students and 50 med students, put them in the same 2 year curriculum, and see who comes out on top. Enough said about that.
Argument 2: Pods also take board exams that test the same stuff
False: You can’t equate pod exams w/ USMLE. Give me 100 pods taking the USMLE and see how many pass vs 100 MDs.
Is Western University, Des Moines University, and Midwestern University @ Arizona low tier DO schools? Is Chicago Medical School low tier? I don’t have a point…I’m actually curious if they are or not.
respectful:
GPA and MCAT ARE a good rep of intelligence. Higher ranked schools have students w/ higher GPA/MCAT than low tier schools. Of course there are exceptions when someone like urself gets a low GPA but really is intelligent, but on average, higher scores = smart.
I want to say to you all that are still young and going through the first few years of med school/podiatry, or whatever..at some point, you need to overcome yourself. What I mean by that is, when a person chooses a certain field, there are certain reasons behind that choice, of which are really no ones business. Putting each other down for going to schools outside of medical school (i.e.: chiropractic, podiatry), is pointless. I know some in medical schools that may not have had the highest GPA, but are successful because they have the ability for the job, and there are certainly some individuals in non-MD/DO programs that have greater ability than some in those programs. The point is, at some point you will need to interact and need to respect each other in your own right. The patient doesn’t care where you went to school, they care about how well you do you job. Don’t spend time putting each other down or worrying about this or that; you need to worry about yourself and what you want to accomplish (i.e. residency). As you will come to see, you will know proficiency when you see it, and surprisingly, you may find a lack of it with your own MD counterparts in residency or practice. The title of physician is meaningless. It is a word. Your own title as a doctor, has meaning, but you are the one who gives it meaning. No matter what field you are in (i.e. DPM, MD, DO, DC, DDS..), you are a doctor, and there is no room to discriminate. Everyone knows the MD’s job, and there is no room for superiority complexes in the real world, with real patients, with real diseases, with their well being on the line. You get the title by getting grades. Earn it once you leave, and learn to interact professionally with each other.
The article is just sugar-coated and tactful. The reality is that one goes to podiatry school if s/he doesn’t have a good MCAT score. I haven’t seen anyone who goes to podiatry school with MCAT above 30.
What irritates me is that most of the people here bashing podiatry are probably either premed or in med school now, not doctors yet. In 10 years from now, do you really think anyone is going to give a sh*t what you got on your MCATs? Or what your college GPA was? I doubt any MD or DO on these forums are making such ignorant statements as the one above me. I am still in college, but I can at least remain open minded about every medical profession and understand that yes podiatry has lower stats, but to actually pass podiatry school and a residency program is MUCH different from just being accepted. The intelligent individuals that frequent this website should know the difference, but I guess they don’t.
Rob said “While people say the scope is small, show me another doctor that sees all age ranges from infant to geriatric and treats all problems from dermatology to biomechanics.”
Yeah, it’s called doctor of veterinary medicine.
electrophile,
Yes. You are correct. But I think its safe to assume everyone on here was talking about human medicine.
blah:
I don’t get that you characterize our curriculum as less challenging and point out that we pod students will never know how hard MD/DO classes are, since we don’t take them (and the ones we do take with them.. well they dont really count right?? because they are lower tier??) And you are a med student I am assuming??… but you HAVE taken the podiatry curriculum, so YOU would know how to compare them right?? Of course I am sure someone as smart as yourself can see the hypocrisy… according to my professors, the classes I take in common with MD students (which these professors teach) are comparable… so thats what I am basing my opinion on… if it is true or not, I dont really care, as long as I am prepared for my own career… and of course you are right about the trends… my point of view (and the point of view of a lot of my classmates who are exceptions) is that its annoying when people come on and say things which generalize the entire profession, and all students in it, just because of certain trends… i trust that you arent one to do this though yourself… it is true that most pods wouldnt do as well on MD boards, because we do have differences in curriculum… but how well would you do our lower extremity or biomechanics sections? how well would an MD do on the dental boards?? Does this mean that one is better than the other?? If people want to focus on lower extremity problems, do a lot of interesting procedures, and have a good lifestyle, then podiatry is the best field… if not, then they should definitely go somewhere else… no one can argue with that…i dont understand why students such as yourself (if you even are an MD student) seem so intent on “ranking” one group as superior to the others… why do you care??
it is also annoying when people come in and put down the profession itself, the actual work, the job, the day to day stuff, based on things like scope of practice being only the lower extremity, or mcat averages of schools or stuff like that that has ABSOLUTELY NO BEARING on the day to day activities of the job… I mean come on, who chooses podiatry if they dont want to treat lower extremity conditions?? If I wanted to check peoples breasts and testicles for lumps, or prescribe antipsychotics, or do tilt table tests, I wouldnt have done this… I just wish people would get off our backs about why we entered this field… luckily the only people who “bash” podiatry for the reasons i have mentioned are insecure haters, who arent in the exact place they want to be, and so need to put others down to make themselves feel better…
Someone:
… Midwestern also has a great pod school, and a great DO program. I personally dont know much about Western
Des Moines and Chicago are arguably the 2 best podiatry schools (i said arguably…) Des Moines is one of the top DO schools, and Chicago has an oustanding MD program (this is contrary to what you might have interpreted from the comments of “blah”, who apparently knows all the rankings
Matt:
Wonderful comment… couldn’t agree more…
respectful,
You are right! I did a quick search for MCAT rankings of DO schools and what I found is hilarious. Guess who ranks in the top 4 of MCAT averages?? #1: western, #2 and #3: Midwestern (both chicago and arizona campus), #4: Des Moines.
hmmm….interesting…
as a practicing podiatric surgeon, i can say, i could count the number on my hand with fingers left over of real foot/ankle surgeons who I would send my family members to with real in-patient hospital experience. The pod school courses are watered down, no USMLEs, your competition is other pod students (who most have very low MCATs, low GPAS, and from low-tier undergrads). that is a fact. one pod school solicits DAT student who failed to get into dental school. IF pod. school is MEDICAL school ONLY accept the MCAT–why the GMAT, GREs, DATs, etc.???? All the phony BS PR rhetoric will not change an inherently flawed graduate school model of education and business model. Pods are redundant, very inconsistent training, and residencies are hit/miss with little research breadth, real journal articles in something other than the JAMPA/JAFS magazines. Podiatry needs to be a field in ACGME period. Pod colleges are obsolete, and having podiatric medicine/surgery as a real MD/DO speciality is the only way to go to ensure rigor, consistency and students who are not frat boys and know medicine inside/out.
Temple (PCPM) accepts DAT, GREs and MCATs. Why GREs and DATS???? If pod school is medical school why accept business school entrance exams and dentistry school entrance exams? Why such wide array of entrance exams–is that b/c pod schools have trouble drumming up “applicants?” Do MD schools have recruiters and direct marketing strategies? Or cartoons purporting the bogus 40 hr work week lie or the diversity of practice lie, or the integral member of the health team lie?
A while ago, one pod schoo had students take the USMLE, they bombed it, we think it was in the 90’s. Perhaps, the schooling is more rigorous now 2009. However, taking podiatry on-line 1 hour part 1 and 2 is a JOKE. Take the USMLE part 1 as REQUIRED for MDs. No back-door entry allowed. You want to be a doctor/physician–do it the right way.
John
I agree that Podiatry should require the MCAT, however the kids who got good MCATs don’t go to Pod school, they go to MD/DO so why not get the rest. Most GRE, DAT etc students perform just as well or even better than the low MCAT kids.
As for the USMLE, we have our own boards and we would not mind taking the USMLE, but why take it if we can not get the ACGME residencies.
MCAT attempts to assess ability in medical school courses/thinking/didactic abilities. MCATs must be required by ALL podiatry schools. When I applied to pod. school; they ONLY accepted MCATs. Not DATs, GREs, GMATs and other nonsense not pertaining to medical school; rather business school rejects and dental rejects. One student was even a chiro. reject?!?
If podiatry aspires to be called`physicians’ then they must start being educated like one. Pretty sad that podiatry cannot get students who really want to be foot/ankle surgeons or genl. podiatrists without stooping to get bottom of barrel business and dental school rejects. Why can’t the profession sell itself by the interest in LE medicine?
Podiatric medicine must be assimilated by allopathic medicine. Boards by ABMS, USMLEs (not 1-hour on-line “exams”) stringent in-training residency exams, consistent residency training for all. This cannot be achieved by the dinosaurs in charge who enjoy the status sorry quo. Too many politics, and too many sad sacks who are chiropodists and do not want to see the profession progress to being an MD speciality by ACGME. Podiatry schools will become obsolete, and will go out of business. Foot and ankle surgeons will be the podiatric surgical provider by those completing a brutal 5 year ortho residency then a 1 year fellowship in foot/ankle surgery/medicine.
John,
All but i think 2 schools are MCAT only now. And no one takes the GMAT.
I do not know anything about the current board exams so I cannot comment on that specifically but there is a push for pods to take the USMLE. I’m pretty sure that Western U will require their DPM students to take the USMLE.
The standard is now a 3 year surgical residency. Few people do 2 years and close to none do any less.
Just curious…what year did you graduate from pod school? I just want to get a little perspective on where you are coming from.
John,
you seem to be quite disgruntled… all the things you are complaining about, have actually been changing the last 10 years or so especially… such as standardized surgical residency training, harder curriculum’s, integrated with medical schools… are you not aware of this? the trends in podiatry right now are mostly all going in the right direction, we are considered physicians in medicare and most likely soon medicaid as well… im not trying to sugar coat things, and theres a lot of room in podiatry for better doctors, but honestly I think you are misjudging the current status of most residency programs and school curriculums these days. are you not familiar with the whole vision 2015 idea? most of what you are complaining about is adressed in there. yes it is true that several of my classmates were at first wanting to get into dental school (many had no idea what podiatry was), and some came here because they couldnt get in MD or dental school, but those that put their hearts into do great… at the end of the day, if they work hard, it doenst matter at all if podiatry was their first choice or not… do you feel that as a podiatrist, you are not an integral part of the healthcare team? the pods i know at home and around my school are very busy and get a large number of referrals from other doctors… also several work for orthopedic groups and do all the foot and ankle stuff… the two people who introduced me to podiatry were actually internists. granted im a student, and not a doctor like you, but ive never been given the impression that podiatrists in general are not considered an integral part of the healthcare system. im just confused as to why if you are a surgeon, and successful, you would seem so unhappy with the field… what time frame were you applying to school? a chiro reject?? wow… last time i checked you need like a 2.25 to get into chiro school… pretty sure nobody in my class had that gpa in college. i will agree with you though john, that i think a decent sized minority of the students accepted into podiatry schools may not give podiatry the best name… but i think every field has those among themselves.. we can only be responsible for ourselves
thank you for your comments. spent over 158,000 in student loans. i speak the truth. been through an academic 3 year program, graduated from top tier undergrad, MCAT 29R, went to PCPM. Schools should NOT be accepting dental school rejects. that is embarassing. Dental school?? If podiatrists want to call themselves ‘physicians’ then get physician training, and not opting for the backdoor of medicine. Idealistic happy talk purported by political organizations does not change facts.
podiatric medicine was my first choice. problem is that the old guard and political APA does not embrace change. they embrace nepotism, cronyism, and buddy system. anything that rocks capsizes the boat is scary to podiatrists as they are allied medicine and happy to get anything, crumbs and all.
all the mission statement/programs podiatry 5000 means squat unless CHANGE is enacted. They were talking that PR rhetoric when I was a student–nothing changes. remember the 1995 20/20 podiatry expose, or the MD costa rica program, or APA’s statements about MD changes, or PMD?!?! all defunct, never heard from again, and no real change, same poor caliber applicants, inconstistent training, and joke boards. ONE hour on-line part 1 and 2???? that is crazy–and student’s think they are “physicians.”?
USMLES part 1 REQUIRED for passage to year 3 of Pod school
first two years IDENTICAL to US medical students at US medical schools.
ACGME oversight of podiatric medical/surigcal residencies
surgical/medical rigorous in-training exams required for all resident
board certification by the ABMS
2 tracks=general podiatry and foot/ankle surgery similar to dentistry and OMFS.
When did you graduate?
Change has happened. I believe as of this year 3 year residencies are the minimum.
One hour part 1 and part 2? Are you sure? Part 1 is like 205 questions…that’s a lot to stuff into a 1 hour exam!
first 2 years are identical at 2 schools, 1st year is identical at 1 other school.
theres a part 3 of boards taken after 1st year residency now. Also towards the end of your 3rd year residency you must take the ABPS board exam to become board qualified. Then you have several years to compile a certain number of each procedure to become board certified.
Things are changing and have CHANGED.
Again, When did you graduate?
“first 2 years are identical at 2 schools, 1st year is identical at 1 other school.”
- I meant identical to DO schools…they sit side by side with DO. Same time, tests, curves, etc.
john
there arent as many dental school rejects as you imply. and those that are still had good credentials, just didnt make it to dental school usually because they werent residents, and dental school is super super super competitive these days since its the short path with equal to better pay. i agree with most of the changes you propose. your assessment of the boards being an hour long and such is completely inaccurate however, it apparently was that way when you graduated. i think you wouldve been pleased with the difficulty level of the boards the last few years. also, training is now pretty much standardized, and applicant quality is rising (slowly but surely). Im just curious as to why you think that all the pod students coming out now are such idiots… was everyone in your class an idiot or something? many kids in my class got accepted to DO schools at least and what not, but most such as myself had no interest… i consider podiatrists to be foot and ankle physicians… i mean we are what we are… a good podiatrist is the best at what he does, just like any specialty… do you consider yourself a surgeon, but not a physician? I think you have some great ideas about what the future should look like for us, and i hope that a lot of what you say does happen sooner rather than later (or at all)… but why all the negativity on your own career choice? We all know that podiatry is not intended to be a BACK DOOR into medicine, its just intended to be a discipline dealing with lower extremity disease, and i think MOST students these days view it that way… should it have been an MD specialty from the beginning??? Perhaps, but at this point that seems irrelevant. I think you might be listening too much to a bitter F/A orthopod… there are definitely some inconsistencies in podiatry, but most are being resolved. You seem to really despise your profession, and in my opinion, underestimate its value. I do not mean any of this in an insulting way… all I knew about podiatry in the beginning (from other MD’s and pods that i shadowed) were positive things, but i am extremely surprised at how much negativity surrounds it on these student forums…
John,
I just have to wonder again… you can prescribe a whole host of medications, and you treat just about any simple or complex problem in the foot/ankle through conservative or surgical means, you did a three year hospital surgical residency in which you rotated throughout most (if not all) specialties, you can do joint fusions, skin grafts, etc… and yet after all this, do you not consider yourself a foot and ankle Physician?? I’m just curious
Thanks for your comments. I graduated from PCPM in 1997, did a three-year academic surgical residency from a prestigous hospital. Many in my class were not motivated in foot/ankle medicine/surgery. Rather, they were MD/DO/DC/DDS rejects; quite sad b/c podiatric medicine was not their true interest/advocation. They were forced into loving it b.c of the lab coat and ‘dr’ title.
The residency I went to many including attendings, residents, fellows (DPMS) were all too happy to eat crumbs, be 2nd class citizens than learn medicine. they obscessed about bunions, callouses, and nails. rather than learning endocrinology (for all those diabetics, or inflammation cascades for all those LE infections–little medicine alot of chiropody–even at a 3-year program. rather than perform meaningful surgery, they performed cosmetic bunions, pinochio surgery–bringing in diabetics multiple times for $$$$ than doing definitive sx.
In the ER, LisFranc’s fx. were sent to ortho, and ingrown nails sent to podiatric medicine. That is pathetic. Could you imaging a LeForte fx. being sent to a general surgeon , rather than the OMFS resident?
Podiatry is all too often happy to eat crumbs, our attendings did not publish in real journal, nor perform federally funded research, (most “drug” company/dealer “research”–heavily biased/skewed), and the residency was on probation for lack of didactic instruction/adhering to the standards set by the CPME. the good ol’ network protected the program instead of terminating the ‘chief’, the ‘director’ etc… Our “chief” learned surgery from the sports ortho fellow–how sad. how can one be chief and need to take lessons from a trainee??
We certainly appreciate what organized podiatry is trying to do to legitimize the profession and equate it to physicians MD/DO, however, to do this, one must have earned admission via great GPAs, MCATS, excellent tier undergrad, and USMLEs part 1, not an on-line 1-hour exam. In-training residency exams analogous to MDs/DOs trainees.
IF podiatry schools are “identical” in the first two years, then take and PASS the USMLE part 1. that would be a terrific start. All the BS political rhetoic via the APA, and ACFAS, is nonsense. What matters is what the MD/DOs think b.c they MAKE the rules hospital/clinics and otherwise.
Moreover, I did not spend $158,000 (first generation college student-no help from trust fund, parents, grandpa), to spend the majority of my time clipping/trimming dead skin/nails. That is what a pedicurist is for. IF I am truly a ‘physician’, then why can’t I admit my own patients, or take STSG to put over FHB for a diabetic? Or take a graft from ASIS to place into the talus (astragulus)–w/o consulting ortho–that is a joke. Corns/callouses/cosmetic bunions/hammers/and some dead skin trimming for 4+4+3= 11 years of schooling/training and expensive board exams to spend most of our time being a pedicurist or going to nursing homes?! being a tootsie twiddler. Do not mean to bash, but facts are facts; we will not pour honey over dog faeces–it is what it is. Rea ispa loquitor.
For those of you reading this that may be interested in podiatry as a career choice and have stumbled across this discussion while researching:
Take the time to shadow a few pods to make a decision for yourself. You’re going to find both happy and disgruntled workers in any given field. As with any other profession there are positives and negatives about the field of podiatry. Is it worth deciding against a profession solely on the negatives? I wouldn’t say so. Take the time to weigh it out. What if the positives outweigh the negatives? What if a “dental school reject” can find happiness and success in a field he may not have known about? Is that a bad thing?
You may be surprised to find quite a few podiatrists that are very happy with where they are in life. I’ve met plenty. You may also find a few (such as John) that have complaints about the profession and feel they made a mistake. I’ve met a couple of those.
We could spend all day long arguing over the negative aspects of the field. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. What makes one man happy might not make another man happy.
Do your research, shadow a pod, make an educated decision. You owe it to yourself.
John,
You mention all these things that you, as a DPM, are not able to do. From the training you have received, going through podiatry school and completing a 3 year surgical residency, are you ABLE to do everything that you mentioned you are not ALLOWED to do?
If your answer is YES, then what is holding you back is the laws or your state or the rules of that hospital. They must not be up to date on what DPMs are ABLE to do and thus limit what DPMs are ALLOWED to do. If your answer is YES then can I ask you to voice your concerns to your state and/or hospital? By doing so you can be part of the change and help yourself and/or help others like me who might be in your position in the coming years.
If you answer is NO, then it seems that you may have gone into this profession for the wrong reasons and/or you were tricked into pursuing podiatry.
Please let me know your answer.
For those of you who do not believe that a lot has changed in podiatry in the past 10 years then visit this website: http://medicine.yale.edu/ortho/patient/podiatry.aspx
“The Podiatry Service of Orthopaedics and Rehabilitation offers comprehensive foot care by board certified podiatric foot and ankle surgeons. These medically and surgically trained podiatrists are available to care for children and adult patients. The Yale Sports Medicine Center offers podiatric sports medicine including Dayton type sports orthotics. The Diabetic Foot Center specializes in wound care and diabetic foot reconstruction. The Friday Foot clinic sees all types of complex foot problems including pediatric and adult foot deformities. The Yale-New Haven Hospital Primary Care center offers primary podiatric care for their patients. The Podiatric clinical faculty maintain a close working relationship with their Orthopaedic and Vascular Surgery colleagues.
Among special services offered are:
* Diabetic foot care and reconstruction
* Treatment of fractures and foot trauma
* Foot surgery
* General foot care
* Orthotics and biomechanics
Yale Faculty:
* Martin Pressman, D.P.M, FACFAS, Assistant Clinical Professor, Podiatry Service Chief”
Yes thats right. Podiatry at Yale. And as you can see at the bottom…YALE FACULTY. A podiatrist is ASSISTANT CLINICAL PROFESSOR at Yale medical school.
THanks again for your kind remarks and thoughtful inquiries.
I have fought very hard on behalf of qualified general pods and foot/ankle surgeons, and qualified, earnest resident to earn the privl. at hospitals, rigorous/grueling traing (in-house patient management, rounding at 5AM-that is a surgeon), insulin orders, med orders, clearing patients for sx, H/Ps, ACLS certification, crash team, publishing in real journals, etc.. day surgical facitilities priv., clinics etc….then ran into a brick wall with regard to the old school pods who have unfortunately have engrained in the medical (MD/DO) staff’s/committees mind of the “typical” podiatrist. The PODS feel intimated, want autonomy and enjoy the status quo. Heard them saying at a ACFAS conference, that many would not have done podiatry b/c of the politcs involved, and the lack of consistency of training/.schooling. The APA leadership is clueless setting up another surgical committee distanting themselves from ACFAS, further convoluting/muddying the waters. Join with AOFAS otherwise, podiatry will remain podiatry. Rea ipsa loquitor.
The problem is that like the APA states, 50 states with 50 DIFFERENT scopes unlike MDs. You have derogatory formal statements being espoused by the AMA. You have orthos who control the hospitals. Yes, as a resident you MAY do bimalleolar fx, or triples, or LisFrancs, reconstructive diabetic salvage, etc….but unless you travel to the hinder lands of GA, or some other part of an obscure state, you will not be performing what you should be performing. the majority of your work regardless of years in residency will be spent–trimming, debriding, nail polish for fungus, decallousing people, and pasting pads on feet for 11-12 yrs of “training.” That is a pedicurist, not a physician.
The vision 5000 whatever rhetoric the APA is espousing is something regurgitated from decades ago–this has all been done before. Hiring PR firms, greater public/medical knowledge of pods, forcing MDs to think DPMs have similar training/schooling. all to no avail.
Start simple: PASSING USMLE step 1 for entrace into 3 yr at ALL podiatry schools, MCATs required at ALL pod schools, GPA high, high-tier undergrads, smaller classes, FULL amalgamation with MD schools. Not watered down classes, or similar classes, same classes, same exams, same bar, otherwise, podiatry will remain podiatry.
I brought all of this up at meetings, formal testimony, etc…., and my main enemies have been pods, NOT MDs. What are pods/pod politicians so afraid of. IF you are a physician-then go through identical tracts. Otherwise, we can argue till the wee hours of the morning that monkeys and humans are similar and yes in some respects they are, but at the end of the day they are not human.
Also, to further answer your questions: I can do trimalleolar, bimalleolar, ankles, grafts, tendon transfers, muscle transfers, traumas, full scope foot/ankle surgery in the tertiary hospital setting. fully trained with very complex in-house patient management of patients with multiple co-morbities. Ext. experience with ACLS, crash teams, prednisone tapers, vanco, linezolid, digoxin, EKG adept at level of an internist etc…However, what is the point of all this raining if one cannot perform what they trained for?
Thank you John for your very thorough response.
I can tell that you are a properly trained podiatric surgeon. I can also tell that you are frustrated. Change is happening in podiatry. There are legitimate research being done now…just look up Dr. Armstrong. Stats are going up…Scholl is ~3.3gpa and 25mcat, DMU is ~3.4gpa 23mcat, AZPod is 3.4-3.5gpa. 7/9 schools take only MCAT. The California Board of Podiatry now allows the USMLE to be taken in place of the NBPME(pod boards)…setting up the stage for Western University’s DPM program, which will sit side by side with DO for all 4 years, to take the USMLE.
Things are changing. I know you mentioned that the biggest hurdle you have faced are the older pods, surely these guys will be retiring soon. Look below for the APMA vision 2015.
VISION 2015:
O1. Evaluate and ensure that podiatric medical education is comparable to that of allopathic and osteopathic physicians.
O2. Demonstrate to the entire health care community that the education, training, and experience of a podiatric physician are comparable to that of allopathic and osteopathic physicians.
O3. Obtain state and federal government recognition that podiatrists are physicians.
O4. Market and promote podiatrists as physicians.
O5. Attract high quality applicants to colleges of podiatric medicine and thereby to the profession.
O1. Evaluate and ensure that podiatric medical education is comparable to that of allopathic and osteopathic physicians.
They even address the scope issue that you mentioned.
O3.2 Revise State Practice Laws
State laws need to be changed to include podiatric physicians in the physician scope of practice within a uniform scope of practice. This process will require significant legislative and regulatory change. State components will need to be very active in moving this effort forward. Of the many activities associated with the overall goal of Vision 2015, this one may be the most arduous task. The State Advocacy Committee should help promulgate these initiatives.
I know that as a student I do not know the ins and outs of the profession but from reading your concerns and reading the APMA vision 2015…they are almost identical. The new generation of podiatrists…those with the same training and same mindset as yourself…are gaining power within the APMA. Please do not become frustrated and stop pushing for what you know you are able to do as a podiatric surgeon.
Anyone correct me if I’m wrong here…but for those who don’t believe there will ever be equality for podiatrists, didn’t it take a long time for DO’s to get parity with MD’s? It was probably considered witchcraft 50 years ago, and yet at least in the US they do exactly the same things besides learning OMM. Why is it so hard to believe that this stuff takes lots of time?
There are many MDs that I would not trust flushing a toilet or sharpening a pencil. Both USA and IMGs. ‘MD’ does NOT bestow intelligence, nor thinking abilities. But, it does sure make life easier in terms of professional achievement and application to hopsitals/clinics/jobs…..
In order to ensure viability, and rigorous training which is consistent and meritorous of a physician-we MUST take the same classes, same boards, and be under the same auspices as the MDs. It is vitally impt. to ensure the very best care of our patients and be “equals” in the eyes of other MDs and hospital boards who determine priveledges.
thanks again, great questions, and though provoking themes.
Thanks John. Your experience and input has been really helpful. As someone who is going to be starting podiatry school next year I found your thoughts and concerns to be really helpful in preparing me for my future. Again, thanks for your time and input.
Dear Sir/Madam:
Wish you the very best, study hard, enjoy life, listen to good music, been well rounded–your pts. will love you for this. Read JAMA, NEJS, JBJS both american and british; JFAS, JAOFS, FAS, etc…read as much as you can, and do not be afraid to make lots of mistakes–that is how you learn and become proficient and expert.
Best of luck,.
The equality among the MD and others is full of many different events and decisions over the course of history. You have to understand that the MD is the initial component of the entire health care system from which all else stemmed from, and so because of this, they have no welcomed anyone with open arms into the monopoly they once had.
It did take over a century for DO’s to become incorporated, and amazingly, in the professional world, gain identical status. While the MD community did not like DO’s at first, they did realize that they had interesting concepts that could actually work. While many were opposed, the open minded MD’s knew it was legitimate practice, and that individuals trained in the way of the DO were competent. With that being said, the time lag for acceptance really overlapped with the time it took DO’s to prove they were proficient. The same exact battle happened with the chiropractors, and after nearly a century, like clockwork, they are being incorporated as well. As far as podiatry and dentistry goes, greater technology and research in the sciences supported that idea that these were areas that required special attention. The mouth and the foot are two areas that are vital to the way we as humans work. While MD’s can specialize in different areas, it was seen as beneficial to have experts in these areas that could exchange with the MD/DO. The overall picture is building a more efficient health care ‘family’ where we can efficiently handle every problem that is manifested in the human body. While some may discount these specializations, they really are critical to have because they are areas that require very in depth knowledge and detailed information. You can look at it as almost comparable to the specialties that MD/DO’s go into. While the basic courses in school are the same, they branch at about year 2 to get into the specialty sooner than would an MD/DO. I don’t feel like I need to explain the varying areas of pathologies and significance associated with each because I assume that you are probably on some sort of medical related course, but it finally comes down to creating a proficient and efficient health care system that can deal with all human ailments from an expert level, hence “Dr”.
After reading the 1st 5 comments…
I came to the conclusion that
all you people need a life
..honestly..who the fuck cares…
HAHAHA. Z is right… I think we all take ourselves too seriously… Thanks for pointing it out Z.
MD/DO’s bag the girls…what you gonna get as a feets doctor? lolz go to med school to be cool
Ted,
I really didn’t want to comment but I just have to. You must really be a loser to make such a statement. I mean come on…you need an MD/DO to get girls. SERIOUSLY. WOW. and “go to med school to be cool”…SERIOUSLY. WOW. You should incorporate that into your personal statement…
To the a-hole who said DPM= “did not pass Mcat”—–that is certainly not true……getting into med school is often luck – one can say that DO’s are the same…..I thought this inter degree hate was for the oldsters and not for the younger docs….and Shan above……there are plenty of MD’s and DO’s who refer their foot patients to pods rather then orthopods….get real
To “YouIgnorant Slut”:
I think the “inter degree hate” that you refer to is actually most common among students in these forums… as you can see from these posts, any actual seasoned MD/DO who has commented on here has told people to get over themselves and get over their egos, and to respect doctors in any field… that is refreshing to me… it seems that it is mostly students who are so concerned with this arrogant and demeaning crap… actual doctors who are busy treating patients usually realize the limits of their own knowledge and refer to those who specialize in the field they need, because this is practical… I can see why you would be irritated, but don’t sweat the haters that post nonsense about our field on here.. once they get in the real world and encounter smart and talented podiatrists, their opinions will most likely change, in the meantime they can enjoy their fantasy world where they are better than everyone else… MCAT scores, GPA, school rankings, etc. do not matter to a doctor in the real world as much as CLINICAL SKILL. Any real practicing doctor realizes this.
I have come to the conclusion that these student doctor forums (at least the comments sections) are a complete waste of time and space… My advice to anyone seeking a career in podiatric medicine would be to SHADOW PODIATRISTS IN THE REAL WORLD, DO NOT MAKE YOUR DECISION BASED ON THIS STUDENT DOCTOR SITE!!! do not even let forums like this sway you one way or the other… keep in mind that most people on here have absolutely no idea what they are talking about…
The ultimate summation of the argument goes like this:
“I chose podiatry school, because a podiatry school chose me and a medical school did not.”
LOL at above…you fail at reading comprehension.
sandy,
Are u serious? Wow..are u this judgemental (and wrong by the way) in all areas of your life?.. one of the most frustrating arguements podiatry students encounter is that all of us applied to medical school and didnt get in!! I cant believe that some of you cant fathom that most of us actually chose podiatry school and had NO intention of applying to MD school! I wonder if the dental, optometry, vet, etc students all get this same blanket and inaccurate criticism from arrogant pre-meds (who think being a doctor just means you can do anything you want and be rich and get girls…)
Someone,
I have read most of your posts on this joke of a comment board, and I just wanted to say that I really respect your knowledge and enthusiasm. I think you have done a great job defending our field (especially against those guys earlier like that redneck psycho LeRoy guy LOL!! That guy was nuts, as was that Happy and Very Happy character who probably was the same DO student trying to make rude comments as if it were 2 people, so that it would look like more people were on his side LOL) I wish you the best. Are you currently in the application process??
I think people often associate pod students as med school rejects cause pod students also take the mcat whereas dental & optometry students do not. Vets… that’s a different story, we’re not even talking about humans anymore lol. Also, pod schools used to and 1 or 2 still take dat scores and gre’s. Clearly, students submitting those scores come off like rejects
Also, there are so many pod students claiming to have gotten into med school, but chose pod school instead. I can’t even remember how many times I’ve seen that statement. I can see how some may think it’s B.S. simply because who the hell would take the time to fill out AMCAS/AACOMAS (pain in the ass) fork out hundreds to thousands on primaries and another few hundred or thousand on secondaries, and toss another few hundred or thousand on travel expenses for interviews. I’m only talking about money here. The effort in filling out the secondary and rigor in writing a medical school personal statement, 3-6 essays per secondary, and finding letter of rec writers to write about how well you would do in medical school is NOT something anyone would do for fun or just to see if they’d get in.
Either way, I respect podiatry. There is no one on earth that can match your knowledge of the foot/ankle. I simply think there are things your profession could do away with if it wants to be perceived as its own profession and not a medical school rejection choice. Less talk about taking the USMLE would be a start also. It never made sense to me… Why have pod students say podiatric medical school is the same thing as medical school. we take the same classes blah blah blah and we’re thinking about taking the USMLE. By the way… I got into medical school, but i chose pod school cause it’s a better fit for me. ???!!!??? but you just said it’s the same thing! So you decided to toss your med school acceptances out the window and redo the app cycle, repay all the app fees, rewrite essays, and tell your lor writers you’re going to pod school instead and got new letters (not sure if people actually do this)? All for the “same thing.”
Barney,
you make a lot of sense… pod school and med school are not EXACTLY the same… however, the administrations of the schools over the years have made us have about 90 percent of the curriculum in common, especially at the schools that are affiliated with med schools… therefore one could argue that they are pretty much the same education, but with a twist on the emphasis… i guess the frustrating thing for pod students is when med students (like many on this board earlier) say retarded things like “you pods wouldnt know what to do if a patient passed out, because you only learn the foot!!” i cannot describe to you how foolish such a statement appears to us… it blows my mind that they think we spend 4 years learning only the foot, when really we only take about 2-4 credits each semester of something dealing with specifically the foot/leg… everything else is systemic medicine and pathology… my neurologist the other day actually asked me (and he honestly didnt know) if when we do our physiology, we study the heart and stuff too, or if we just do physiology of the foot and leg!!!! LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS?? as if it has its own separate physiology?!?! so you can see why this would be annoying… its frustrating to spend years learning stuff and then have other students (who dont even know you or your school) telling you that you didnt learn it, or that you are ignorant about topics you also had to master, when really they are the ones demonstrating ignorance about you…
The bottom line is: podiatric medical school is VERY similar to medical school, but with a podiatric EMPHASIS… this should be pretty much common sense but for some reason there seems to be a lot of confusion about it, obviously due to peoples egos… It blows my mind that some of these med students think that since our schools may have a lower MCAT average than theirs, they think we dont have to learn the same stuff as them… as if pathology and pharm were not the same subject at my school as at theirs… you can see how this would get annoying… then they claim that is isnt as hard here, which of course they would have know way of knowing… and why would it not be as hard, esepcially where pod students are integrated with med students, and taking the same courses???? I gaurantee you that our lower anatomy and lower pathology are much more intense than at most med schools, and it makes sense that it would be
yes there are some pod students with inferiority complexes who feel the need to say that we are EXACTLY the same as med students…. which makes no sense to me, because it is our specialization which makes us important/unique/marketable, etc… personally I would rate my knowledge of systemic medicine a FRACTION below an MD student, and my knowlege of lower extremity medicine a FRACTION above them… that is how our schools prepare us… and our first year of residency which is internal med
Barney, I do know people who were accepted to both podiatry and medical schools, but most pod students who applied to multiple programs actually applied to programs like dentistry or optometry, etc. … programs with a shorter duration… and if pod students did apply to med schools as well, they probably only picked a couple, due to the hassles you mentioned above… I would venture a guess that 70 percent of my classmates only applied to podiatry school, because they knew thats what they wanted to go in to…
respectful,
Thanks for the kind words. I also appreciate you coming on this board and dispelling lies/ignorance. I think podiatry as a profession needs more people like you who are not afraid to raise their voices.
Yes, I am in the process of applying for c/o 2014…well I guess I should say I’ve finished the process since I have already finalized my acceptance
Can’t wait to start podiatry school next year!
Barney,
I completely understand where you are coming from. As respectful mentioned, a large chunk of Podiatry applicants do come from other health professions such as optometry, dentistry, and medicine. This is largely because Podiatry is such a hidden field. I don’t know if you read some of the other comments above but as you can see, many do not know what podiatrists do. A lot of applicants only found out about podiatry while looking at another field. If my brother did not work at a hospital with an in house podiatry service (this is still quite rare) I would not have known about podiatry.
Another reason for applicants applying to both podiatry and MD/DO is because these applicants were traditionally pre-med. Like I said above, podiatry is a hidden field. When these applicants started the application process they either thought “I should still apply for MD/DO since I am a pre-med” or “My parents still want me to apply MD/DO…I guess I will”. I know this because I felt the same way BUT despite my parents offering to pay for amcas/aacomas…I did not go through with it and only applied for podiatry.
Another thing to consider is that while amcas and aacomas might be a big hassle with secondaries and huge expenses…podiatry is relatively cheap and easy. I think I paid $400 to apply to all 9 schools and the I only had to write 1 personal statement about “why podiatry”.
Lastly, to address the whole podiatry school = medical school. I think this stems from the identity crisis in podiatry. On one hand pods take many of the same classes as med students. Like mentioned above many are side by side with med students…same class, curve, tests, etc. Pods also do rotations in IM, EM, gen surg, ortho, vasc, etc. Pods do residency where 1st year is much like an intern year and 2-3 is all ortho, pod surg, trauma, etc. It is a surgical residency. Then on the other hand there is a focus on lower extremity from day 1. Pods do not do or there is much less focus on ophthalmology, psych, ob/gyn. Pods do not do rotations in psych, ob/gyn, etc. Then there is the situation outside of academics. Pods have full prescription rights. In most states pods can do their own h&p, have surgical privilages in hospitals, have admitting privilages. Some are even hospitalists.
So as you can see it is hard to pin point exactly where pods stand. On one hand pods are separate from MD/DO since there is a difference in education. On the other hand MD/DO’s eventually specialize and when they do…how important is some of the general medical education? How important is the eye to an orthopedic surgeon? Now since specialization has been brought up…how different is podiatry than any other medical specialty? In some hospitals they are indistinguishable. In practice podiatry is indistinguishable to other medical specialties. The arguments go on and on.
Good grief…careful, your insecurties and immaturity are showing! I would think that people intrested in healthcare would be better able to dialogue than some of the hateful vitriol I have read. It is scary to think some of you will be interacting with patients in pain or colleagues that might get under your skin…take a defensive chill pill and try to speak to eachother as partners in an effort, than ememies with an ax to grind!
“It is scary to think some of you will be interacting with patients in pain”
You could also take a chill pill. This is the internet. No one will actually be talking this way to their patient. OK, maybe one idiot will, but there’s simply no correlation between online Sh*t talking and patient contact. With the amount of crap said on SDN, if there were any correlation, I think 90% of all med students/residents/attendings would be kicked out of the program or have no job.
I can’t wait till everyone is screwed with the Obama plan and ets off their high horses!
But that’s what you get for electing an islamic terrorist as your president! You got what you wanted now enjoy OBAMA bin ladin!!!!
^I hope for the sake of medicine you never become a doctor.
LOL… this has gotten ridiculous… but still entertaining…
Learn to respect your fellow neighbor.
I just want to say Im a D.O. student who has a father as a Podiatrist. My father is a very well respected physician’s physician and performes detailed surgeries as well as pateint care. I respect all DPM’s as physicians, as they share so many roots with Allopathic and osteopathic schools. The gpa average is lower than most other schools, but this means very little in the end (residencies and community respect do). As a future DO, i occationally hear the same garbage that I chose this because i couldnt get into the MD program. Its not fair to assume this (while for some it is true)as i graduated with a 3.85 from a prestigious school and scored well on the MCAT. Some people will bring the stats down for Pod schools, but it is not indicative of the quality of podiatrist that results. That is to be determined for each person.
!!!! Cant wait to practice along side all my pod and md buddies in the near future:)
So, take heart DPMs, your future potential is great and if you play hard you have no reason to feel any less than any other Doctor. PS, some podiatrist make amazing money as well. My father makes over 300k/yr (which is not normal, average is 134,000) and works 50hrs a week. It can be done
Meddek8DO:
Wonderful comment… it was refreshing to read something honest and positive, and based on your own personal experience… thank you
Here are my thoughts………I am a six year veteran of the US Navy with three combat tours (2 in Iraq and 1 in Afghanistan). At the age of 20, while most of the people on this thread were still in junior high and high school, I was treating: GSW’s, Acute Stress Disorder, patients in shock, respiratory arrest, fractures and a whole host of other traumas (physical and mental). I don’t mean I was assisting in the treatments, I was performing emergency life saving procedures, unsupervised without direction from a physician. In addition to all of this I was being attacked by people who were going to kill me when they got the chance. Fast forward a few years: I graduated with high honors from a school with a great reputation (3.8 Science GPA/4.0 Non-science GPA), I scored a 33 on the MCATs (11’s across the board) and have been offered multiple military packages to pay for medical school. I applied to and was accepted to: four M.D. programs, six D.O. programs, three D.P.T. programs and two D.P.M. programs. I recently accepted an offer to matriculate to a D.O. program because it is the best fit for me. For anyone who has taken it upon themselves to believe that they are better than anyone else needs to realize that medical practice is an interdisciplinary art. If you are not intelligent enough to direct a patient to someone who is able to better treat them than yourself, please consider a different career because you are endangering the lives of OUR patients. No one on this post has their OWN patients, they are OUR patients, regardless of your specialty/title/letters behind your name. WE are the future of medical practice and WE owe it to OUR patients (remember them, the whole reason that the profession exists) to see each other for what they are, colleagues. As a D.O. I will be more than happy to consult a M.D., D.P.M. and any other type of medical professional to assist with in better serving the patient. I am a firm believer that those who practice medicine only for financial gain have brought the respectability of the medical arts down and hope that those who are too prideful to let someone else take over a case that you can not figure out have a short career because those of us who are entering medicine for the correct reasons need not to deal with your lack of professional respect. Medicine is a life long learning process and no one will ever know it all.
NavyDoc, I think the last sentence you said was honestly the most intelligent thing said on this entire thread. NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW IT ALL. I hope everyone here bashing other medical disciplines comes to realize this. Do you really think a cardiologist remembers much about the eye? Do you think a FM Dr remembers details about every disease and every part of the body when he is so used to referring his patients to specialists? Can an EM doc do trauma surgery on a patient? No, he refers that patient to a surgeon. I shadowed a neonatologist and he told me that due to malpractice more and more doctors specialize and narrow down what they practice day-by-day. He knew one Dr. who focused solely on the cornea! Not even the entire eye! Does that mean that doctor is an idiot because after years of practicing one little body part he will eventually not remember everything about the stomach? How hard can it be to focus on one part of one organ, right? The ignorance expressed here is disgusting. One other point I must make: elitism is relative. The vast majority of American’s do not hold a doctorate degree. Most don’t even have a Masters. You’re going to tell me that the average American is going to frown upon a Podiatrist, even though he went to four years of college, four years of doctorate school, and 3 years of post-doc? ARE YOU JOKING ME?! And if you want me to speak frankly, for all you DO’s patronizing podiatric medicine, I’m sure there are MD’s who look down upon you. And for all you FM MD’s, I’m sure there are specialists who look down upon YOU for not specializing. And for all you cardiologists and neurologists, I’m sure there are cardio surgeons and neurosurgeons who look down upon YOU for not doing a longer residency! Now of course I do not agree with any of that, but for anyone criticizing another medical field, I’ve got news for you. There’s ALWAYS going to be someone who thinks they’re better than you, so get off your high horse and learn to get along with the others around you.
I just so happen to be a 3rd year podiatry student, sitting in a “watered down” ER rotation as we speak! I hate to say it, but I’m not going to use most of this stuff in my career; it is watered down (and boring!) We aren’t trained to be ER physicians. That’s not our speciality. We aren’t trained to be internal medicine physicians. That’s not our specialty! I’ve spent years working in the medical lab (be nice to your lab Doctors! Remember, tests take TIME!) I’ve seen what internal medicine, urgent care, family practice, and pediatric physicians do on a daily basis! Sorry, but it’s not for me! I only got accepted into one DO program. I only applied to one. My mother (BSN/MSN) BEGGED me to go! But I was realistic. I knew I would end up being in a residency I didn’t want (probably internal medicine) and I wouldn’t be happy! Sure, clipping toenails (”Toenail Tuesday” or “Terrible Tuesday”) isn’t fun, but it’s something that has to be done for your patient. It’s about treating the patient, not about who’s (you know what) is bigger than who’s. Get over yourselves all you Doctors who are playing this game of “I’m better than you. I’m more important than you. I’m trained better than you.” We are all trained differently. We all do different things better. There are plenty of DO/DPM students would do fantastic in MD schools and on their boards (and some that couldn’t do it). You’re not smarter, you’re just trained differently. If you really wanna whip ‘em out and compare sizes…let me know.
Who cares! They all require hardwork and have decent pay. MD=DO=DPM>zombies>nazi zombies
For the future doctors out there reading all of this malicious BS, please don’t feel discouraged or defeated in your pursuits. There are actually a handful of realistic and uplifting posts on here. Thanks for those.
MD, DO, DPM, etc are ONLY professional designations. Once obtained they are placed behind a person’s name to signify WHAT it is you have been trained to do. There are no professional designations for WHY you do it, HOW well you do it. Instead there are only assumptions made according to this imaginary doctor hierarchy followed by judgement being passed down to anybody who, in your mind, is lower on the totem pole. Who do you think you are? If you are mean like this to your COLLEAGUES then I feel bad for the patient who makes the mistake of coming to seek your help. The question of your core competencies as a doctor aside, your character needs its own residency program.
Good luck on match day.
I can’t even believe that people take the time to argue about this (or that I took the time to read it- it was like a train wreck). Who cares what we are all called? DPMs like feet because they are interesting, and doctors like looking at skin problems, xrays, tumors, strange bone formations, and infections. Oh wait a minute DPMs do all that too, just on the feet. I just blew my own mind. And just to be clear, about 1% of the reason I am going into podiatry is so that I don’t have to put up with the enormous annoying egos that a lot of MDs/DOs possess. And another reason is because the only other specialty that seemed interesting was gynocology but I didn’t want to have to look at vaginas all day. Yes, I would prefer feet.
mmm…interesting…
Just found these comments and some of you are both funny and sad. Specifically in regards to the comment “DPM’s cannot do what MD/DO can” I’ll say the following… There is GREAT disparity within the field of podiatry. Some podiatrists cut nails and calluses at nursing homes which is fine and some do surgery. Myself, I trained at a 4 year surgical residency at a well known ivy league university health system. I work in an orthopaedic practice with 6 other orthopds. I was recruited as the foot and ankle surgeon there and I get ALL the F&A cases. I do all fracture care/trauma care, sprains/strains/tendinitis and surgery. I do no diabetic/palliatice care because that’s what I chose. I have earned the respect of my fellow orthopods. I perform F&A surgery as well as any orthopod and can do any procedure they do OF THE F&A including rearfoot/ankle fusions and I also do TAR/total ankle replacements. So I’d be careful of some of your statements as they show both ignorance and malice.
Who cares? Makes lots $$$, retire, and get off the USA work-addict treadmill.
I’m a podiatry resident (senior) at a program in the northeast. I’m done in six months and returning to my home in the southwest. I am fully trained in forefoot, rearfoot, and ankle trauma and reconstructive surgery. I’ll be working with a group that takes ER trauma call at two different hospitals and will have full admitting privileges at all hospitals where I will be a member of medical staff. While interviewing at another hospital back west, I was surprised to find that a podiatrist was actually chief of surgery. As someone else already stated, their is a huge desparity in podiatric medical training. Things have greatly changed in the last 15 years in the profession.
I do not understand where all of these arguments come from and why some people feel the need to draw a distinct line between MD/DO/DPM etc etc. Clearly these people go through different educations and specialize in different areas otherwise the degrees would be the same. But I think this actually upsets a lot of people, including myself, because in the end we are all healthcare professionals and healthcare is becoming more and more interprofessional so we all have to work together. In fact, I do not think that it is common for the MD students to constantly make themselves feel higher up than the DPMs or DOs, or for the DOs to make themselves feel higher up than the DPMs. I have met students in all different kinds of programs and they have always acted professional when referring to their medical colleagues. The MD students who constantly feel the need to differentiate themselves from everybody else just seemed to have bitter and unpleasant personalities in general. It is not a question of dictionary definitions. As someone who has been accepted to an MD as well as a DPM program, and been rejected from MD and DPM programs, I can say that there is more than just “smartness” behind getting accepted into certain healthcare schools. Clearly, I was “smart” enough to get into medical school, but not “smart” enough to get into podiatry school. But podiatry school is so much easier to get into than medical school right? Clearly, these schools are looking for other things than just GPA and MCAT scores. I mean obviously if you’ve failed your classes you probably won’t stand a chance but schools are really looking at the type of person you are. So in conclusion, the MD/DPM debate MUST end. Have respect for your fellow healthcare colleagues. No matter what road we choose, nothing comes easy in healthcare. You have to find your niche. We are all professionals, and by definition professionals act professionaly and do not succumb to the petty issue of ripping apart the definition of “physician” and leaving out certain groups of people simply because they do not feel that they are good enough.
By the way, BOB’s post on September 15: very well stated sir. I could not agree with you more.
Let’s all just get along folks. We are all going to be working together eventually someday.
Like I have said before, typically students are the main ones hung up in these ego battles (probably because many are yet to mature and get over themselves)… it is very dumb and rather annoying… Boiler Runner and others make very good points… People shouldn’t forget to be well-rounded… I think a lot of people who get so caught up in making themselves look superior to everyone else based on their degree, many times lack fullfillment in other areas of their lives… its like they depend on that for their self esteem… I’m by no means perfect, but in addition to trying to master my specialty, I try to go to the gym daily, play basketball 2x a week, spend a lot of time with my girl, get in occasional video games and TV, and have some semblance of a social life, … That balance is all that keeps me sane… I think you have to be able to relate to your patients as a well-rounded person… not just tell them that you are superior to all of your colleagues who don’t hold your same degree in medicine
podiatrists…hahahahahaahahahahahaha
breathe
hahahahahaha
Wow… I have gained a lot of respect for podiatrists after reading many of these comments… it is interesting to see that it is typically prejudiced or egotistical people that seem to put you guys down. Some people should just get a life and quit being rude! (I.E. the moron that posted before me) I can’t believe that some people actually take the time to write some of the negative things on here! It just ends up demonstrating their own inferiority complex.