How likely is it to make $375-400k in Psych?

Pulling a mill off of non MD stuff, maybe they have a family business.

voxveritatisetlucis said:

Investing in real estate if you can’t pay fully in cash is pointless right now. Rates are never going back to 3% either

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I’m financing everything and generating more than SP500 in real estate. It is harder than it was 10 years ago certainly. Finding good properties that cash flow is harder.

I don't get it. Why shouldn't people do psych for the money?

Most physicians who make 500k/yr also work 50+ hrs/wk.

I was told you can also make that kind of money in psych if you work 50+ hrs (cobbling 2 jobs).

Psychapplicant133 said:

This is exactly why I’m so confused about people sleeping on psych or if I’m trippin

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These psych guys/gals here obviously know more than I do about psych since I am an IM hospitalist.

If you can find a 4 days/wk job making 300k/yr; therefore, it is not difficult to make 400k/yr.

I said it before here; it is not difficult to make 400k+ as a physician (except for a few specialties) if making money is one of your primary objectives

When I was graduating residency 3 yrs ago, I thought it was going to be difficult to make 300k/yr, but I have been making 400k+/yr without sacrificing my quality of life.

Splenda88 said:

I don't get it. Why shouldn't people do psych for the money?

Most physicians who make 500k/yr also work 50+ hrs/wk.

I was told you can also make that kind of money in psych if you work 50+ hrs (cobbling 2 jobs).

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Most physicians don’t want to do that or don’t know how. Anesthesia, radiology, etc. can walk into 1 job earning much more than psych. Their effort to achieve that financial figure is minimal. With psych, you need to find opportunities that mesh together or do above average volume.

If you are willing to search and work 50+ hours, every field (maybe not peds) can earn $500k+.

Splenda88 said:

I don't get it. Why shouldn't people do psych for the money?

Most physicians who make 500k/yr also work 50+ hrs/wk.

I was told you can also make that kind of money in psych if you work 50+ hrs (cobbling 2 jobs).

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Same reason FP/IM could make that cobbling multiple jobs, nursing home, NPs, extra call and moonlighting. Its not that it's not possible for non procedural fields to find a way to get there its just not exactly easily sustainable.

Anes/Rads working 35-40 ish clinical hours is already there at their primary job more or less when you factor in some of those groups get 10+ weeks of vaca a year. People tend to think of a primary job reaching the numbers they have in mind not juggling multiple gigs and wknds, calls, nights that doesn't sound as appetizing and not always easily feasible.

Just like as a hospitalist i know some that make 500 but they work on their 1 week off.... just not sure how sustainable that is but sure a young 30 year old could do it for a few years but it still is not fun.

finalpsychyear said:

Yes w2 is better lifestyle no question while 1099 you can hustle and probably retire in half the working years if one wanted.

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Candidate2017 said:

Yes, you can make 400k+ in psych as described by others above (multiple jobs, undesirable jobs, business, subspecialization/top expertise, etc.). But psychiatry on average is just the highest paid of the lowest paid specialties.

OP, what do you love more? Psychiatry or money? I'll say it's very hard to actually know if you love psychiatry until you are an actual attending, and I don't know anyone who hates money.

What? These specialties, and others, can double or triple the avg psych income. Maybe you are referring to production based practices where new attendings make practically nothing but ramp up to the moon once they are full? These well paid specialties don't need to start a practice. They can jump into a group and practice medicine from Day 1. Their question is whether to make a lot of money as a W-9 or a whole lot of money by joining a group and becoming a partner.

For us, ease of starting a practice is more important because W-9 work as a psychiatrist is generally oppressive.

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Okay, fair points.

No, it's probably not the best specialty if you want to max income and you don't really care about the work.

Last quarter I had some TOUGH cases and the practice was *quite* full so I was slightly burnt out. Things are getting better again and I'm loving my practice.

It *can* be a very good lifestyle+ specialty, but the pathway isn't very straight. Some psychiatrists do well, but it's not a single W2 job at Kaiser. I hope all of this is fairly standard knowledge at this point.

TexasPhysician said:

Most physicians don’t want to do that or don’t know how. Anesthesia, radiology, etc. can walk into 1 job earning much more than psych. Their effort to achieve that financial figure is minimal. With psych, you need to find opportunities that mesh together or do above average volume.

If you are willing to search and work 50+ hours, every field (maybe not peds) can earn $500k+.

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@finalpsychyear

If I was younger when I finished med school, I would have done radiology.

I am not the type who subscribes to the idea that I can be happy doing only this specialty. I can see myself being ok doing most things in medicine except surgical specialties.

I know rad and gas are swimming in money these days, but if OP can only see him/hersself doing psych, I think he/she can find a way to make 400k+

Merovinge said:

Psych employed jobs that will clear $400k are either going to be meat grinder/high patient census positions (very easy to get these) or in undesirable locations (I personally know someone who took a middle-of-nowhere Kentucky job for $400k with a very reasonable caseload).

Psych can pay very well per hour in private practice as mentioned in many places.

I would push back on dl2dp2 above and note that If you really want to be employed and paid well, it's very clear that positions like derm, NSGY, ortho, vascular, uro, ENT, gas, rads, GI, interventional cards are all going to be a much better option. MGMA median salaries will give you an idea of what employed salaries are like. Many are absolutely north of 400k, although the lifestyle of those positions is often significantly worse.

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Small world.
I know that Kentucky job you’re talking about.

dl2dp2 said:

Okay, fair points.

No, it's probably not the best specialty if you want to max income and you don't really care about the work.

Last quarter I had some TOUGH cases and the practice was *quite* full so I was slightly burnt out. Things are getting better again and I'm loving my practice.

It *can* be a very good lifestyle+ specialty, but the pathway isn't very straight. Some psychiatrists do well, but it's not a single W2 job at Kaiser. I hope all of this is fairly standard knowledge at this point.

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Splenda88 said:

@finalpsychyear

If I was younger when I finished med school, I would have done radiology.

I am not the type who subscribes to the idea that I can be happy doing only this specialty. I can see myself being ok doing most things in medicine except surgical specialties.

I know rad and gas are swimming in money these days, but if OP can only see him/hersself doing psych, I think he/she can find a way to make 400k+

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When i was starting out several years ago I only worked 2 half days a week while i was building a PP some moonlighting wknds for hospitals sprinkled in there. Now granted there was some stuff related to practice matters that on the other days required some work but i had TONS of free time to workout which i used to do 2x a day 5-6 days a week, dating, trips, friends, etc.

While i didn't make much money I truly enjoyed time over money. This is why I would love to be down to 2 half days a week by the end of the decade maybe i'm dreaming. Being married and adding kids to the mix are the variables I'm not sure would allow this so soon. Ill keep dreaming though.

finalpsychyear said:

When i was starting out several years ago I only worked 2 half days a week while i was building a PP some moonlighting wknds for hospitals sprinkled in there. Now granted there was some stuff related to practice matters that on the other days required some work but i had TONS of free time to workout which i used to do 2x a day 5-6 days a week, dating, trips, friends, etc.

While i didn't make much money I truly enjoyed time over money. This is why I would love to be down to 2 half days a week by the end of the decade maybe i'm dreaming. Being married and adding kids to the mix are the variables I'm not sure would allow this so soon. Ill keep dreaming though.

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I have been reading some of your posts and if I am not mistaken, I believe your financial independence (FI) number is somewhere around ~5 mil.

I think people overestimate how much they need to be financially independent.

Since working part time for us physicians translate to making 125-175k/yr, I believe most of us can cut back once our home is paid off and have 1.5-2 mil in retirement/investment.

Merovinge said:

Psych employed jobs that will clear $400k are either going to be meat grinder/high patient census positions (very easy to get these) or in undesirable locations (I personally know someone who took a middle-of-nowhere Kentucky job for $400k with a very reasonable caseload).

Psych can pay very well per hour in private practice as mentioned in many places.

I would push back on dl2dp2 above and note that If you really want to be employed and paid well, it's very clear that positions like derm, NSGY, ortho, vascular, uro, ENT, gas, rads, GI, interventional cards are all going to be a much better option. MGMA median salaries will give you an idea of what employed salaries are like. Many are absolutely north of 400k, although the lifestyle of those positions is often significantly worse.

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samac said:

Small world.
I know that Kentucky job you’re talking about.

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Lol, I probably do too. Is this from the system where the recruiters always send pictures of the Kentucky Derby in their e-mails or the smaller system closer to Cincinnati? If neither it sounds like there's an abundance of solid jobs in Kentucky if you don't mind moving there...

Splenda88 said:

I have been reading some of your posts and if I am not mistaken, I believe your financial independence (FI) number is somewhere around ~5 mil.

I think people overestimate how much they need to be financially independent.

Since working part time for us physicians translate to making 125-175k/yr, I believe most of us can cut back once our home is paid off and have 1.5-2 mil in retirement/investment.

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There's also a huge difference between truly going for FIRE (full retirement, no longer working/earning) versus busting butt and pulling back to working PT/minimally and still pulling in $50-100k/yr. If you're going full FIRE as a physician, then $5 mil is probably going to be necessary. If you're just dropping to PT work and still pulling in $100k+/yr then yea, you'd probably be fine once you hit a couple of million.

Stagg737 said:

There's also a huge difference between truly going for FIRE (full retirement, no longer working/earning) versus busting butt and pulling back to working PT/minimally and still pulling in $50-100k/yr. If you're going full FIRE as a physician, then $5 mil is probably going to be necessary. If you're just dropping to PT work and still pulling in $100k+/yr then yea, you'd probably be fine once you hit a couple of million.

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5 mil might be necessary for HCOL areas. I think 3 mil is more than enough for low-to-medium COL areas.

I dont believe in retiring early but I am a big fan of being financially independent.

Splenda88 said:

Since working part time for us physicians translate to making 125-175k/yr, I believe most of us can cut back once our home is paid off and have 1.5-2 mil in retirement/investment.

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3M for me then probably scaling back, especially with house and kids on the way in the next year. I want to spend time with family. Gf is anesthesia and she also wants to scale back once she has kids. Location is Irvine (Orange County).

Stagg737 said:

Lol, I probably do too. Is this from the system where the recruiters always send pictures of the Kentucky Derby in their e-mails or the smaller system closer to Cincinnati? If neither it sounds like there's an abundance of solid jobs in Kentucky if you don't mind moving there...

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Nope. That’s a different one! It’s in the 300k range.
And I signed for 245 in academics.
But I hate outpatient so so much.

Splenda88 said:

5 mil might be necessary for HCOL areas. I think 3 mil is more than enough for low-to-medium COL areas.

I dont believe in retiring early but I am a big fan of being financially independent.

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Even in low to medium areas recommendation is still at least $5mil. My goal is to be able to retire at 55yo and have $150k/yr available (I said $100k, wife upped that, lol). Our financial advisor crunched the numbers and said our goal should be to hit at least $6mil in our relatively LCOL area. This is also keeping in mind we're calculating for a family of 4-5 and want to pay for UG for them. If you're solo or no kids those numbers may be dramatically different.

sloh said:

3M for me then probably scaling back, especially with house and kids on the way in the next year. I want to spend time with family. Gf is anesthesia and she also wants to scale back once she has kids. Location is Irvine (Orange County).

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Your situation is that even if both of you work PT you'll still be at 500k if not more with a nest egg of 3m ish and im guessing a house payment which will be most of your expense. Great situation!

Stagg737 said:

Even in low to medium areas recommendation is still at least $5mil. My goal is to be able to retire at 55yo and have $150k/yr available (I said $100k, wife upped that, lol). Our financial advisor crunched the numbers and said our goal should be to hit at least $6mil in our relatively LCOL area. This is also keeping in mind we're calculating for a family of 4-5 and want to pay for UG for them. If you're solo or no kids those numbers may be dramatically different.

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Its funny when i started working I was told 2.5m was this ideal number and now its doubled in the last several years.

I wont be shocked by the end of the decade if its 7-8m. Im starting to feel that you need to have that magic number NOW for it to truly be magical. If its magical only in theory then by the time you reach it it loses its benefit. For me, I'll just have to step down to PT work and reevaluate what actually makes sense.

sloh said:

3M for me then probably scaling back, especially with house and kids on the way in the next year. I want to spend time with family. Gf is anesthesia and she also wants to scale back once she has kids. Location is Irvine (Orange County).

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Irvine is expensive but given that you and your partner are docs, you can do that easily.

I will also cut back once my primary residence is paid off and I have 1.5-2 mil in retirement/investment accounts.


Same type of home where I live would cost 225-250k in a good school district. California is in a league of its own.

finalpsychyear said:

Its funny when i started working I was told 2.5m was this ideal number and now its doubled in the last several years.

I wont be shocked by the end of the decade if its 7-8m. Im starting to feel that you need to have that magic number NOW for it to truly be magical. If its magical only in theory then by the time you reach it it loses its benefit. For me, I'll just have to step down to PT work and reevaluate what actually makes sense.

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Depends. My advisor took into account inflation. So she said targeting for $5-6mil today I'd likely end up with $9-11mil by the time I'm looking to retire taking normal inflation into account, which is what would be predicted to be needed then (20-25 years). Who knows though, that was a couple of years ago and we haven't discussed changes to specific target numbers or inflation patterns recently.

finalpsychyear said:

Its funny when i started working I was told 2.5m was this ideal number and now its doubled in the last several years.

I wont be shocked by the end of the decade if its 7-8m. Im starting to feel that you need to have that magic number NOW for it to truly be magical. If its magical only in theory then by the time you reach it it loses its benefit. For me, I'll just have to step down to PT work and reevaluate what actually makes sense.

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It may have doubled because there's been a drastic ramp up in housing/living costs over the last 5 years that we're unlikely to see again anytime soon. I highly doubt that someone who would need 5 million dollars today to retire would need 8 million dollars to retire by end of the decade which will be 2030 (~10% increase every year over year).

It just really matters what your financial situation looks like when you retire and what kind of standard of living/lifestyle inflation you expect. You also have to take into account tax burden for anything you're pulling from at <55-59.5 years, especially if you're doing things like trying to do a bunch of backdoor Roth IRA conversions or something. Theres a huge difference if you have a house and cars paid off when you retire early vs not....you're taking two of your biggest expenses off the table. There's also a huge difference if you're doing things like wanting to pay for 2-3 kids full college tuition, although this can be heavily mitigated by frontloading money into 529 plans.

Stagg737 said:

Even in low to medium areas recommendation is still at least $5mil. My goal is to be able to retire at 55yo and have $150k/yr available (I said $100k, wife upped that, lol). Our financial advisor crunched the numbers and said our goal should be to hit at least $6mil in our relatively LCOL area. This is also keeping in mind we're calculating for a family of 4-5 and want to pay for UG for them. If you're solo or no kids those numbers may be dramatically different.

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That's interesting because that's a very conservative number that gives you a ton of cushion. A 4% withdrawal rate on 6,000,000 is 240K....even a 3% withdrawal rate is 180K. Even at 4% and taking into account average inflation it's likely you never touch your principle (and possibly see some increase in your balance) given average returns. Even if you want to pay for undergrad you can throw 500 bucks a month each into 529s and have 200K per kid in there by the time they're 18...it shouldn't drastically impact that calculation.

Stagg737 said:

Depends. My advisor took into account inflation. So she said targeting for $5-6mil today I'd likely end up with $9-11mil by the time I'm looking to retire taking normal inflation into account, which is what would be predicted to be needed then (20-25 years). Who knows though, that was a couple of years ago and we haven't discussed changes to specific target numbers or inflation patterns recently.

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The answer to the retirement number will always depend on market assumptions, your stock/bond split, and inflation. Your financial advisor is taking very conservative numbers into account to come up with that being what you would need. If your house is paid off and you aren't paying for childcare, I would expect 100k in today's dollars to be enough for a very nice lifestyle in a medium to low COL area. That's very reasonable on 3mill liquid +own your home. If you want an extra 50k to travel lavishly, 5 million +own your own home is very reasonable. You can always enact a variable withdrawal rate where you spend less if the market is done (and even spend a bit more if the market is up when you use very conservative numbers).

I am not a financial advisor/planner, but I have seen the math and listen to an ungodly amount of financial podcasts FWIW if you want a different perspective.

Stagg737 said:

Even in low to medium areas recommendation is still at least $5mil. My goal is to be able to retire at 55yo and have $150k/yr available (I said $100k, wife upped that, lol). Our financial advisor crunched the numbers and said our goal should be to hit at least $6mil in our relatively LCOL area. This is also keeping in mind we're calculating for a family of 4-5 and want to pay for UG for them. If you're solo or no kids those numbers may be dramatically different.

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At first I was thinking $6M comfortably does a $200k minimum withdrawal but then I realized that the tax treatment of the investment portfolio is really important here. $6M in pre-tax (income tax), post-tax roth (no tax), or regular investment account (cap gains) makes a big difference in how the withdrawal amount translates to actual cash flow. Plus it sounds like the $6M could include lump sum expensive UG tuition, which functions less like a retirement withdrawal situation and more like an immediate drop in the investment portfolio.

--

As for the thread as a whole, it is worth noting that benefits packages can make a big difference in the effective total comp for an employed position. If my situation was for a family of 4, then I estimate my benefits would be worth a minimum of $75k PA. That brings a $300k W2 job up to parity with $375k in private practice. Gotta compare apples to apples.

calvnandhobbs68 said:

That's interesting because that's a very conservative number that gives you a ton of cushion. A 4% withdrawal rate on 6,000,000 is 240K....even a 3% withdrawal rate is 180K. Even at 4% and taking into account average inflation it's likely you never touch your principle (and possibly see some increase in your balance) given average returns. Even if you want to pay for undergrad you can throw 500 bucks a month each into 529s and have 200K per kid in there by the time they're 18...it shouldn't drastically impact that calculation.

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Merovinge said:

The answer to the retirement number will always depend on market assumptions, your stock/bond split, and inflation. Your financial advisor is taking very conservative numbers into account to come up with that being what you would need. If your house is paid off and you aren't paying for childcare, I would expect 100k in today's dollars to be enough for a very nice lifestyle in a medium to low COL area. That's very reasonable on 3mill liquid +own your home. If you want an extra 50k to travel lavishly, 5 million +own your own home is very reasonable. You can always enact a variable withdrawal rate where you spend less if the market is done (and even spend a bit more if the market is up when you use very conservative numbers).

I am not a financial advisor/planner, but I have seen the math and listen to an ungodly amount of financial podcasts FWIW if you want a different perspective.

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That's all fair, as I told her to plan for worst case scenario. I've worked with too many patients who "thought we were fine" until they weren't and their entire life spirals. It was also partially to make us more aggressive with our saving as we were way behind (still are to a lesser extent) on retirement savings.

Also, who knows where things will be with inflation though. Basic expenses have shot up recently and aren't "normalizing". We'd like to be able travel and go out to dinner fairly regularly but prices are still crazy high. Went out to Maggiano's for dinner last night and dropped almost $200 on 2 adults and a kid after tip and one drink. Even fast-food like places are getting ridiculous. So while the numbers are conservative, I don't think they're all that unrealistic for necessary goals.

Stagg737 said:

That's all fair, as I told her to plan for worst case scenario. I've worked with too many patients who "thought we were fine" until they weren't and their entire life spirals. It was also partially to make us more aggressive with our saving as we were way behind (still are to a lesser extent) on retirement savings.

Also, who knows where things will be with inflation though. Basic expenses have shot up recently and aren't "normalizing". We'd like to be able travel and go out to dinner fairly regularly but prices are still crazy high. Went out to Maggiano's for dinner last night and dropped almost $200 on 2 adults and a kid after tip and one drink. Even fast-food like places are getting ridiculous. So while the numbers are conservative, I don't think they're all that unrealistic for necessary goals.

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Bro what are you eating at Maggiano's? Both get steak, both get an appetizer, both get desserts, their most expensive drinks and do a 25% tip? An average entree there is like 25-30 bucks, kids meal is 10 bucks, even if drinks were 15 bucks each (which they aren't there) you're still <100 before the tip.

calvnandhobbs68 said:

Bro what are you eating at Maggiano's? Both get steak, both get an appetizer, both get desserts, their most expensive drinks and do a 25% tip? An average entree there is like 25-30 bucks, kids meal is 10 bucks, even if drinks were 15 bucks each (which they aren't there) you're still <100 before the tip.

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Mother's day special. 2 apps, 2 pasta dishes, 2 meat entrees, 2 deserts was $55/person, plus kids meal was around $15 and same for the drink. $30 tip (~20%) put us at $180ish after tax. I guess not "almost $200", but pretty close.

Also about prices not "normalizing", you're never going to see a "normalization" of prices as in actual deflation/price reduction...that would actually be extremely bad if it started occurring across the board. You'll just see a more normal rate of inflation. So yes, the prices you're seeing now are likely never going back down and SHOULD not go back down....that would actually be worse than staying steady or at a typical inflation increase year over year.

Stagg737 said:

Depends. My advisor took into account inflation. So she said targeting for $5-6mil today I'd likely end up with $9-11mil by the time I'm looking to retire taking normal inflation into account, which is what would be predicted to be needed then (20-25 years). Who knows though, that was a couple of years ago and we haven't discussed changes to specific target numbers or inflation patterns recently.

Click to expand...

calvnandhobbs68 said:

It may have doubled because there's been a drastic ramp up in housing/living costs over the last 5 years that we're unlikely to see again anytime soon. I highly doubt that someone who would need 5 million dollars today to retire would need 8 million dollars to retire by end of the decade which will be 2030 (~10% increase every year over year).

It just really matters what your financial situation looks like when you retire and what kind of standard of living/lifestyle inflation you expect. You also have to take into account tax burden for anything you're pulling from at <55-59.5 years, especially if you're doing things like trying to do a bunch of backdoor Roth IRA conversions or something. Theres a huge difference if you have a house and cars paid off when you retire early vs not....you're taking two of your biggest expenses off the table. There's also a huge difference if you're doing things like wanting to pay for 2-3 kids full college tuition, although this can be heavily mitigated by frontloading money into 529 plans.



That's interesting because that's a very conservative number that gives you a ton of cushion. A 4% withdrawal rate on 6,000,000 is 240K....even a 3% withdrawal rate is 180K. Even at 4% and taking into account average inflation it's likely you never touch your principle (and possibly see some increase in your balance) given average returns. Even if you want to pay for undergrad you can throw 500 bucks a month each into 529s and have 200K per kid in there by the time they're 18...it shouldn't drastically impact that calculation.

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I dont have kids nor do i have a house so the challenge for me is what to anticipate coming up as planning on 2 kids. My colleague who is a few years olders says his pre kids/pre house budget essentially doubled so told me basically to plan for that.

Im running at 105-120k/yr with a 4k/mo house rent and 2 car payments which wrap up in 2026. So i try and base my future budget on spending of 210-230 but it'll be less with no car payments. I think a SWR of 3.5 gets me to needing around 6 based on my colleagues advice which sounded reasonable.

calvnandhobbs68 said:

Also about prices not "normalizing", you're never going to see a "normalization" of prices as in actual deflation/price reduction...that would actually be extremely bad if it started occurring across the board. You'll just see a more normal rate of inflation. So yes, the prices you're seeing now are likely never going back down and SHOULD not go back down....that would actually be worse than staying steady or at a typical inflation increase year over year.

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Of course not, what I meant by not "normalizing" is that we don't seem to be catching up in terms of price increase in certain areas vs income. Probably too early to tell with longer term, but having talked to people in a few industries (groceries/food being most notable) where supply chain stabilization in certain areas has not led to any reduction in costs and we're actually seeing gouging in some senses.

finalpsychyear said:

I dont have kids nor do i have a house so the challenge for me is what to anticipate coming up as planning on 2 kids. My colleague who is a few years olders says his pre kids/pre house budget essentially doubled so told me basically to plan for that.

Im running at 105-120k/yr with a 4k/mo house rent and 2 car payments which wrap up in 2026. So i try and base my future budget on spending of 210-230 but it'll be less with no car payments. I think a SWR of 3.5 gets me to needing around 6 based on my colleagues advice which sounded reasonable.

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That is a lot even for a family of 4.

Splenda88 said:

That is a lot even for a family of 4.

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Some people spend a lot more on kids, especially if those kids go to private school. I know people that send their toddlers to "private school" for daycare and pay $40-50k/child/yr for that.

Stagg737 said:

Some people spend a lot more on kids, especially if those kids go to private school. I know people that send their toddlers to "private school" for daycare and pay $40-50k/child/yr for that.

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A decent nanny to watch two kids where I live costs $30/hr. If I actually worked full time like my wife then we would need to spend at least $80k/year for that after taxes, and that's without offering benefits. I agree with the assessment of doubling expenses when you double the number of household members.

Stagg737 said:

Of course not, what I meant by not "normalizing" is that we don't seem to be catching up in terms of price increase in certain areas vs income. Probably too early to tell with longer term, but having talked to people in a few industries (groceries/food being most notable) where supply chain stabilization in certain areas has not led to any reduction in costs and we're actually seeing gouging in some senses.

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Sure but that also doesn't hold up overall. Most of the sticker shock for food for instance are people comparing 2020 prices to 2024. This year price increases are pretty normal and are predicted to be more normal rate going forward. Restaurant prices are certainly being impacted by higher low end labor costs but grocery prices are pretty stable at this point for the past year or so (1.2% increase from March 2023-2024).


Of importance:
"In 2022, food prices increased by 9.9 percent, faster than any year since 1979. Food-at-home prices increased by 11.4 percent, while food-away-from-home prices increased by 7.7 percent. Food prices rose partly due to a Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI) outbreak that affected egg and poultry prices, along with the conflict in Ukraine, which compounded other economy-wide inflationary pressures such as high energy costs. All food price categories increased by more than 5 percent, and all food categories grew faster than their historical average rate.

In 2023, food prices increased by 5.8 percent. Food price growth slowed in 2023 as economy-wide inflationary pressures, supply chain issues, and wholesale food prices eased from 2022. Food-at-home prices increased by 5.0 percent, and food-away-from-home prices increased by 7.1 percent. While prices increased for all food categories except for pork, prices grew more slowly in 2023 than in 2022 for all categories."

calvnandhobbs68 said:

Sure but that also doesn't hold up overall. Most of the sticker shock for food for instance are people comparing 2020 prices to 2024. This year price increases are pretty normal and are predicted to be more normal rate going forward. Restaurant prices are certainly being impacted by higher low end labor costs but grocery prices are pretty stable at this point for the past year or so (1.2% increase from March 2023-2024).

USDA ERS - Summary Findings

ERS research and reporting of the Consumer Price Index (CPI) for food contributes to an understanding of which food categories experience substantial price changes, how consumers spend their incomes on food, and how and why prices change.

www.ers.usda.gov

Of importance:
"In 2022, food prices increased by 9.9 percent, faster than any year since 1979. Food-at-home prices increased by 11.4 percent, while food-away-from-home prices increased by 7.7 percent. Food prices rose partly due to a Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza (HPAI) outbreak that affected egg and poultry prices, along with the conflict in Ukraine, which compounded other economy-wide inflationary pressures such as high energy costs. All food price categories increased by more than 5 percent, and all food categories grew faster than their historical average rate.

In 2023, food prices increased by 5.8 percent. Food price growth slowed in 2023 as economy-wide inflationary pressures, supply chain issues, and wholesale food prices eased from 2022. Food-at-home prices increased by 5.0 percent, and food-away-from-home prices increased by 7.1 percent. While prices increased for all food categories except for pork, prices grew more slowly in 2023 than in 2022 for all categories."

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Not trying to go in circles, but your article is more evidence to my point as even with increases slowed it's still dramatically higher increase than the 20 year average of 2.5% yearly increase.

My point is that prices aren't normalizing to where they "should be" (<3% annual increase across food types) with inflation correction. A lot of my info is per one of my neighbors who is a regional exec for a large grocery chain. Your source outlines a lot of the issues, which have mostly stabilized. So we should have seen price increases lower than average (<2%) or price decreases, but grocery stores have just kept prices higher because they know they can (per him). So a lot of stores have increased their profit margin on a lot of products and have no reason to correct this because demand hasn't really changed with the increased prices. That's what I'm talking about, the consumer gets price gouged because they keep buying at higher prices and grocery stores know they can keep raising prices.

Your source is using predicted values. If food at-home increases really are only 1.2%, then like I said it's just too early to see the "normalization". My convo with an actual grocery store exec is that there will likely be a higher level of inflation in the foreseeable future. He's regional, so could just my area, which would make sense because your source says egg prices are decreased or increased well below the 20 year average but that is definitely not the case where I'm at.

I'm working to pay for a custom home on farm land, and then the ensuing farm infrastructure to make it a viable niche farm.

Once that's done, I'm out, good bye medicine. The farm is my retirement - annual net will be enough to pay the property taxes and basic living. I want to pop an MI on the tractor, or while trying to pack an Elk out of the mountains at an age that I should be using a cane. That's my next 30-60 years.
-Got the acreage to grow canola to turn into biodiesel; not complete personal/farm need, but heck of a dent
-Fruit trees galore will be planted
-Will have antique combine harvester, and utilize for various cereal crops; do own breakfast mixes, breads, etc
-hops/fruits/honey/grains; for all libation fermentation needs
-Numerous sources of proteins
-Farm pond to grow just enough for rice needs
-well for water
-various forms of own electricity to be off grid
-vehicles that predate chips - I can repair myself, and diesel
-animal fats for oils (or canola) and home made soaps
Essentially looking at list of all the stuff I spend money on and seeing how to reduce or do myself, reduce retirement need by reducing expenses.
-Why go to Rome when you can go fishing?

Sushirolls said:

I'm working to pay for a custom home on farm land, and then the ensuing farm infrastructure to make it a viable niche farm.

Once that's done, I'm out, good bye medicine. The farm is my retirement - annual net will be enough to pay the property taxes and basic living. I want to pop an MI on the tractor, or while trying to pack an Elk out of the mountains at an age that I should be using a cane. That's my next 30-60 years.
-Got the acreage to grow canola to turn into biodiesel; not complete personal/farm need, but heck of a dent
-Fruit trees galore will be planted
-Will have antique combine harvester, and utilize for various cereal crops; do own breakfast mixes, breads, etc
-hops/fruits/honey/grains; for all libation fermentation needs
-Numerous sources of proteins
-Farm pond to grow just enough for rice needs
-well for water
-various forms of own electricity to be off grid
-vehicles that predate chips - I can repair myself, and diesel
-animal fats for oils (or canola) and home made soaps
Essentially looking at list of all the stuff I spend money on and seeing how to reduce or do myself, reduce retirement need by reducing expenses.
-Why go to Rome when you can go fishing?

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Do you like to play games like factorio and rimworld?

Sushirolls said:

I'm working to pay for a custom home on farm land, and then the ensuing farm infrastructure to make it a viable niche farm.

Once that's done, I'm out, good bye medicine. The farm is my retirement - annual net will be enough to pay the property taxes and basic living. I want to pop an MI on the tractor, or while trying to pack an Elk out of the mountains at an age that I should be using a cane. That's my next 30-60 years.
-Got the acreage to grow canola to turn into biodiesel; not complete personal/farm need, but heck of a dent
-Fruit trees galore will be planted
-Will have antique combine harvester, and utilize for various cereal crops; do own breakfast mixes, breads, etc
-hops/fruits/honey/grains; for all libation fermentation needs
-Numerous sources of proteins
-Farm pond to grow just enough for rice needs
-well for water
-various forms of own electricity to be off grid
-vehicles that predate chips - I can repair myself, and diesel
-animal fats for oils (or canola) and home made soaps
Essentially looking at list of all the stuff I spend money on and seeing how to reduce or do myself, reduce retirement need by reducing expenses.
-Why go to Rome when you can go fishing?

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That is such an american thing lol I don't get your obsessions with prepping and living off the land. Everything seems so gigantic and artificial in the US, that I think it pulls some people in the opposite direction. Truly a country of extremes.

Never heard of them. I stopped playing any computer games years ago after seeing their potential to suck up your time.

@thelastpsych I'll defer responding to your post so as not to hijack this thread.

Splenda88 said:

I don't get it. Why shouldn't people do psych for the money?

Most physicians who make 500k/yr also work 50+ hrs/wk.

I was told you can also make that kind of money in psych if you work 50+ hrs (cobbling 2 jobs).

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Because real life is not as pretty. I can only say about where I do residency and regarding people that have been graduating here. Most jobs are 250k for 40h a week, and a big chunk of them have no-competes. You can't get 2 jobs that are Mon-Fri 8-4 for example. Not every job is come and go as you please, so it may be harder to put them together. Maybe everyone graduating at my program is not good at finding jobs, but seems unlikely.

So if you are looking for >400k year, you have two options:
- Do psych, hope to get multiple jobs or open your own practice and maybe make that in a few years
- Do a high paying specialty/IM fellow and simply say yes to a job that pays that

I am not saying don't do psych, I am saying that if goal is to make 400k, it is much safer to do something else. Do gas/rads and you should have a hard time finding something that pays less than 400k.

finalpsychyear said:

How many years out r u again?
Impressive whatever ur invested in had that kind of return 1mo into 2024.

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5 years out. Thanks.

littlefred said:

Real estate?

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thelastpsych said:

Unless you have a big enough amount invested (tens of millions), even real estate will not give you that return in such a short time period. Either he has an enormous amount of money already, or is taking more risk than is realized (options trading, leverage,...). There is no free lunch, contrary to what equity investors in these speculative times would like to believe.

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littlefred said:

Pulling a mill off of non MD stuff, maybe they have a family business.

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No family business. No inheritance. I wish. I'm not sure I would have tolerated medical school if I was that privileged. I took out a loan like many medical students and had a healthy negative net worth when finishing residency.

OF is quite lucrative assuming the right niche. Just kidding.

You're right to assume it is due to investments. Anyone can do it though. If you VTSAX and chill, you'll get there too. It'll just take you more time.

Sushirolls said:

Never heard of them. I stopped playing any computer games years ago after seeing their potential to suck up your time.

@thelastpsych I'll defer responding to your post so as not to hijack this thread.

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Well, I don't recommend them for that exact reason--they're gigantic time sinks--but you might enjoy them because they're basically the same thing as what you're describing. Logistics simulations.

thelastpsych said:

That is such an american thing lol I don't get your obsessions with prepping and living off the land. Everything seems so gigantic and artificial in the US, that I think it pulls some people in the opposite direction. Truly a country of extremes.

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I mean of course this makes sense. Lots of folks get raised in xyz way and end up being antixyz. We see ebbs and flows with generations directly related to this effect. Because our cities/lives are not setup to have great access to locally sourced, reasonably grown food (like in France or Italy), there are plenty of people who do yearn for that.

I disagree with most non-psychiatric things Sushi says, but for someone who is introverted, why not spend your days living in healthy manner and enjoying a self-sustaining lifestyle? I would rather retire in a medium size European city or somewhere tropical but I can certainly see the appeal for living off the grid.

tennisall said:

In our department (academic in California), attendings average 400-450k for a pretty average workload. Not typical, but proves its possible…

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This...seems very unlikely even at very HCOL Stanford or UCLA. Can anyone find a posted academic psychiatry position that is even within $50k of this?

Psychapplicant133 said:

I'm totally open to working more than 40 hours a week actually. Do you think working locums and private practice on the side is a decent way to make like 600+? Without non-competes, it's likely much easier to do over 1 job now, though I recognize that would be like 60 hours a week but I could do it temporarily maybe until after loans are paid off then transition to full-time to private practice

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If you’re looking to make 600+ you’re gonna most likely need two jobs or one that you see a ton of patients and you generate RVU or extra patient bonus above your salary.

The best way is to combine at least one inpatient job that allows you to do you work and dip to a second job which I’d personally say a second IP is best but you could do OP or NH coverage. One job should be a W2 so you get your benefits and also they pay some taxes for you and the second should be a 1099 which allows you take advantage of business deductions. This allows the maximal tax advantages which you’ll want as income scales otherwise you’re just taking home 50-60c of every dollar made.

Psychapplicant133 said:

So one IP job that is W2 with another 1099 gig that is also IP but potentially OP/NH coverage too. Does this mean like in the AM working one job and then in the PM switching to the other, 12 hours a day M-F basically?

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I wouldn’t say so more like 4hrs and 4hrs ish so a normal day basically. IP if you have a good team and structure along with you being efficient should allow for that.

Stagg737 said:

There's also a huge difference between truly going for FIRE (full retirement, no longer working/earning) versus busting butt and pulling back to working PT/minimally and still pulling in $50-100k/yr. If you're going full FIRE as a physician, then $5 mil is probably going to be necessary. If you're just dropping to PT work and still pulling in $100k+/yr then yea, you'd probably be fine once you hit a couple of million.

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sloh said:

3M for me then probably scaling back, especially with house and kids on the way in the next year. I want to spend time with family. Gf is anesthesia and she also wants to scale back once she has kids. Location is Irvine (Orange County).

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finalpsychyear said:

Its funny when i started working I was told 2.5m was this ideal number and now its doubled in the last several years.

I wont be shocked by the end of the decade if its 7-8m. Im starting to feel that you need to have that magic number NOW for it to truly be magical. If its magical only in theory then by the time you reach it it loses its benefit. For me, I'll just have to step down to PT work and reevaluate what actually makes sense

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That coast fire life is so easy as a doc. Hit a decent number like 2-4 mil and then cut back to part time. And we can do fun part time like a few months of work and a few months of traveling that way you basically make your burn and your investments snow ball. And you can run that life for 10-20 years with very little stress and a ton of enjoyment and then magically your investment have grown 2-4x and now you’re sitting at a full fire number

AD04 said:

5 years out. Thanks.





No family business. No inheritance. I wish. I'm not sure I would have tolerated medical school if I was that privileged. I took out a loan like many medical students and had a healthy negative net worth when finishing residency.

OF is quite lucrative assuming the right niche. Just kidding.

You're right to assume it is due to investments. Anyone can do it though. If you VTSAX and chill, you'll get there too. It'll just take you more time.

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any advice on how to succeed like you did? i'd love to hear more and implement your strategies.