Competitiveness of Radiology Fellowships

[californiaboy]

Current R2 rads resident in the Mountain region. Originally from California and hope to go back longterm cause of family. Interested in pursuing either neuro or MSK fellowships and eventually PP. What's the best thing I can do to set myself up well to match back home for fellowship? Is it as competitive to get into fellowships in California as it is to get into residency there? Thanks!

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[MadRadLad]

There are a million fellowship spots and you won't have issues going to the general region. If you want a specific fellowship at a certain place, the best way is to get involved with some projects and network with the attendings at national conferences. If you can have your attendings make a call for you (especially those who trained at the same institution and in the area), then that would probably go the furthest.

 

[guytakingboards]

Agree with MadRadLad,

If you're not picky about the particular program, it's nearly a certainty you can get a spot somewhere in california. Atleast for neuro, the programs I'd consider somewhat competitive are Stanford, UCSF, UCLA and maybe USC. That still leaves Loma Linda, Harbor-UCLA, UC-Davis, UC-Irvine, Cedars, UC-Davis.

Same thing on the MSK side. There's strong programs and then there's places like UC-Irvine and UC-Irvine VA program where I see opening listings every year.

 

[yungspleen]

Agree with MadRadLad,

If you're not picky about the particular program, it's nearly a certainty you can get a spot somewhere in california. Atleast for neuro, the programs I'd consider somewhat competitive are Stanford, UCSF, UCLA and maybe USC. That still leaves Loma Linda, Harbor-UCLA, UC-Davis, UC-Irvine, Cedars, UC-Davis.

Same thing on the MSK side. There's strong programs and then there's places like UC-Irvine and UC-Irvine VA program where I see opening listings every year.

Stanford and UCSF arent competitive because they are 2 year programs. UCSF went unfilled last year

 

[GadRads]

Stanford and UCSF arent competitive because they are 2 year programs. UCSF went unfilled last year

2 year MSK fellowships? That’s odd.

 

[guytakingboards]

Stanford and UCSF arent competitive because they are 2 year programs. UCSF went unfilled last year

Eh, just about every neuro program has gone unfilled at some point. I don't put too much stock into that. UCSF is usually considered a top 5 neuro program if not top 3. Best on the west coast. Anecdotally I've heard even if you sign on for 2 years there its not uncommon to leave after one.

Stanford a solid program and a great CV booster if for those who want a career in academics.

Most of the places that are two years still mostly fill.

 

[MadRadLad]

UCSF does let you leave after 1. Stanford doesn't, but their integration with Silicon Valley startups and the incubator atmosphere is fantastic if you have those interests.

Personally, I think 2 years are a waste of time. Just do 1 year.

UCSD, UCLA, Utah, Barrow, Washington are all great 1 year programs out west. USC has less name brand but I have heard it's a little more chill than the others.

 

[GoPelicans]

I've heard even if you sign on for 2 years there its not uncommon to leave after one.

Do they still get a diploma?

 

[MadRadLad]

Do they still get a diploma?

Enough people who have done 1-year fellowships from UCSF are out there that it probably doesn't matter. Maybe you'll get the stinkeye if you ever try to go get hired again at UCSF or a place like MGH, but you should be fine to get a job at pretty much every other place.

 

[guytakingboards]

Do they still get a diploma?

I have to assume they're not such jerks as to not give 1 year people a certificate stating they completed a 1 year ACGME neuro fellowship (which allows them to take the CAQ). That would be horrible press to let people out at one year and not be CAQ eligible.

 

[vm26]

Current R2 rads resident in the Mountain region. Originally from California and hope to go back longterm cause of family. Interested in pursuing either neuro or MSK fellowships and eventually PP. What's the best thing I can do to set myself up well to match back home for fellowship? Is it as competitive to get into fellowships in California as it is to get into residency there? Thanks!

Can't speak for high end academics but for PP, where you do fellowship is semi-irrelevant these days...You can go to some top notch neuro/MSK fellowship and still lose out to some breast imager that graduated from the cr*ppiest fellowship out there

Even when the market was tighter, PP will hire a new grad from a program they have direct ties with over a random new grad from a "top-notch" fellowship. I'm not from CA but did do a fellowship/worked there for about 5 years (Sac area)

 

[19pieces19]

Can't speak for high end academics but for PP, where you do fellowship is semi-irrelevant these days...You can go to some top notch neuro/MSK fellowship and still lose out to some breast imager that graduated from the cr*ppiest fellowship out there

Even when the market was tighter, PP will hire a new grad from a program they have direct ties with over a random new grad from a "top-notch" fellowship. I'm not from CA but did do a fellowship/worked there for about 5 years (Sac area)

Do you think there's no significant difference in the level of training you get? Do graduates from the more top notch fellowships perform similarly to the more standard programs (miss rates, knowledge as someone others will consult on hard cases, speed)? What about getting access to learning on more specialized scans (prenatal peds neuro, MRI tractography)?

 

[SeisK]

Do you think there's no significant difference in the level of training you get? Do graduates from the more top notch fellowships perform similarly to the more standard programs (miss rates, knowledge as someone others will consult on hard cases, speed)? What about getting access to learning on more specialized scans (prenatal peds neuro, MRI tractography)?

Specialized scans like fMRI and spectroscopy are low yield for private practice.

And in regards to your first question, there really is no good standardized way to compare job applicants, so any answer you get is entirely up to the prejudice of the person answering. The success of any particular applicant has less to do with their educational environment and more to do with their internal drive.

 

[vm26]

Do you think there's no significant difference in the level of training you get? Do graduates from the more top notch fellowships perform similarly to the more standard programs (miss rates, knowledge as someone others will consult on hard cases, speed)? What about getting access to learning on more specialized scans (prenatal peds neuro, MRI tractography)?

See SeisK's response...I think training at top notch residencies/fellowships is more about networking and making the right connections for academic jobs (for the most part). In the past, "better" residencies also provided superior preparation for oral boards due to several factors, a major one being the infrastructure of lectures/teaching during rotations etc...Performance in PP is subjective* and depends on who you are asking. Misses happened to everyone and the ramifications for the patient and you are highly variable/extremely random.

*Caveat is production (how many wRVUs are you reading), and compensation/wRVU. Suppose one can also throw in scheduling-call shifts, vacation etc

 

[MadRadLad]

Do you think there's no significant difference in the level of training you get? Do graduates from the more top notch fellowships perform similarly to the more standard programs (miss rates, knowledge as someone others will consult on hard cases, speed)? What about getting access to learning on more specialized scans (prenatal peds neuro, MRI tractography)?

I agree with the above post.

If you want to do the higher end stuff you need to go to a fellowship that does it. If you like the idea of being the light procedural guy, go do a body or MSK fellowship that emphasized that, not an MR-heavy one. If you want to do lots of peds neuro or advanced stuff like tractography and functional, you need to find a neuro fellowship that emphasizes it. Most fellowships will give you a broad overview of the stuff but there is a lot of variance between programs on the specifics. It's not enough to say "top notch" and call it a day.

Networking is important also - go to a fellowship in the region you want to practice. The faculty and local PPs have generally a better connection because many trained in that region.