For female physicians: do you get called a nurse?

Resident and Fellow Experience in Training
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Iamnew2 said:
This has been frustrating. I'm an attending, a medical director, petite, female and a minority. I work with a lot of older patients, and there is an all male medicine group that also follows the patients. I'm frequently called "nurse" or told "the doctor said...' when referring to the other docs in the all male group. I frequently am confused. I introduce myself as doctor so and so and at times when they ask if I'm the nurse I say no I am your doctor. then they are like oh sorry! and then bam! the next day or two they go back to calling me nurse. Granted most patients are very happy with their care and most have great outcomes. but it's frustrating and I don't knwo what to do about it.
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Hey! I'm a resident who recently mistook his attending for a nurse and pissed her off and took weeks to get on her good side. I'm not sure if you came here expecting an explanation or just someone to listen but if you want to know why I think I did it, it was because the attending was young, she was wearing scrubs (like nurses), and she was pre-rounding unlike most attendings. Additionally, I probably have some subconscious bias towards thinking of a doctor as a male as much as I wish and try to change that perception, the subconcious bias exists. I think the answer lies in your explanation itself (bolded). Subconsciously, others have associated male with physician and females with nurses and the bolded probably contributes to that. Is there something toxic/sexist behind that? That's a nuanced discussion with valid points on both sides. All you can do though is be assertive and correct the ones who mistake you and then how they deal with/internalize that is their own problem.
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Redpancreas said:
Hey! I'm a resident who recently mistook his attending for a nurse and pissed her off and took weeks to get on her good side. I'm not sure if you came here expecting an explanation or just someone to listen but if you want to know why I think I did it, it was because the attending was young, she was wearing scrubs (like nurses), and she was pre-rounding unlike most attendings. Additionally, I probably have some subconscious bias towards thinking of a doctor as a male as much as I wish and try to change that perception, the subconcious bias exists. I think the answer lies in your explanation itself (bolded). Subconsciously, others have associated male with physician and females with nurses and the bolded probably contributes to that. Is there something toxic/sexist behind that? That's a nuanced discussion with valid points on both sides. All you can do though is be assertive and correct the ones who mistake you and then how they deal with/internalize that is their own problem.
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As someone else mistakenly said there are good people on both sides… there are not valid points on both sides… your old fashioned misconception is out of date…you need to change your attitude or I suspect you will be on the bad side of a lot more attendings …
And do you really think that attendings don’t go see their pts outside of resident rounds?

And I still remember the douchey intern that thought he knew better than his senior female residents … and it’s been 10 years…you attending probably let it go… but you probably didn’t get on her good side…
 
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rokshana said:
As someone else mistakenly said there are good people on both sides… there are not valid points on both sides… your old fashioned misconception it out of date…you need to change your attitude or I suspect you will be on the bad side of a lot more attendings …
And do you really think that attendings don’t go see their pts outside of resident rounds?

And I still remember the douchey intern that though he needs better that his senior female residents … and it’s been 10 years… she let it go… but you probably didn’t get on her good side…
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Your confrontational nature is getting old. I’m being introspective here and sharing an error I made which I acknowledged was wrong. There’s no need to misquote me by injecting a nefarious political quote implying my behavior mirrors a former president. I don’t know what good you’re trying to accomplish here or what you are talking about regarding a female senior resident as you’ve committed several typos in the process and I can’t tell if this is baggage you’re carrying from your past or if you’re thinking I was an intern ten years ago and you were a female resident I worked under. Speaking of remembering something, I remember you calling me out quite rudely for my take on Vitamin D deficiency calling 2000 mg daily (a quite common regimen prescribed) a “homeopathic” dose but then ignoring me when I asked genuine questions to clarify and improve my understanding. Posts like this and that previous one make me wonder if you have any good intention behind your posts or if you take satisfaction in just being harsh for no great reason.
 
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rokshana said:
As someone else mistakenly said there are good people on both sides… there are not valid points on both sides… your old fashioned misconception it out of date…you need to change your attitude or I suspect you will be on the bad side of a lot more attendings …
And do you really think that attendings don’t go see their pts outside of resident rounds?

And I still remember the douchey intern that though he needs better that his senior female residents … and it’s been 10 years… she let it go… but you probably didn’t get on her good side…
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To clarify what I meant by nuanced discussion I do not think that saying females are fit for nursing is a nuanced point. It’s wrong. If I have a friend who wears a hijab and I see someone of similar height who is wearing a similar hijab with her back turned and I mistake her for my friend, am I wrong? Yes! Should I be more careful in the future? Yes! Is this something I need to feel terrible about when I genuinely meant no harm? No. This is why I think it’s nuanced discussion. I have heard females physicians rightfully complain about this and they have a point but so do the males who acknowledge their mistake, but then maintain that it’s an honest, non-malicious mistake.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
What a world we live in where we have to defend confusing two people who are dressed alike and facing away from us.
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its the world where, women have been doctors for a good 30-40 years (and actually have been attending medical school for over 100 years) and actually make up > 50% of medical school classes and yet younger men (who don't have the excuse that its how it was their experience to see only men as doctors) still have been schooled to think women are only nurses in healthcare....i would imagine if the person was a young man in scrubs " pre rounding" on their pts, they would not have been mistaken for a nurse.

and yes, what kind of world is it, that someone would taken that as learning moment to reassess their mindset and seek to improve as opposed to " oh well":shrug:, it's her problem, not mine...
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
Unless I'm misreading something, that's not what happened here
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I was responding to a very specific hypothetical in that post, not the main topic. Assuming a woman is a nurse because she’s a woman is very different than mistaking a stranger for your friend because they’re dressed the same.
 
Redpancreas said:
Your confrontational nature is getting old. I’m being introspective here and sharing an error I made which I acknowledged was wrong. There’s no need to misquote me by injecting a nefarious political quote implying my behavior mirrors a former president. I don’t know what good you’re trying to accomplish here or what you are talking about regarding a female senior resident as you’ve committed several typos in the process and I can’t tell if this is baggage you’re carrying from your past or if you’re thinking I was an intern ten years ago and you were a female resident I worked under. Speaking of remembering something, I remember you calling me out quite rudely for my take on Vitamin D deficiency calling 2000 mg daily (a quite common regimen prescribed) a “homeopathic” dose but then ignoring me when I asked genuine questions to clarify and improve my understanding. Posts like this and that previous one make me wonder if you have any good intention behind your posts or if you take satisfaction in just being harsh for no great reason.
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you have shown that you certainly were not taking this seriously...you seem to think that " i made an oopsy! ...my bad"...and yet you don't seem to think that you're preconception that a woman in scrubs is by definition a nurse...introspective would be that it made you actually realize that maybe...your thought process and bias is the incorrect one in this day and age is the flawed thought...and its not the woman physician that needs to work on changing th misconception...

and i don't recall the conversation, but i would image it probably went on the lines that the person had a vitamin d 25 oh level in the single digits...and 2000 units is not going correct that...its kinda like starting a pt on metformin with an A1c of 10%...is 2000 units an appropriate dose for some people? sure...but you need to have the critical thinking skills to realize who its appropriate for...

and my point :bang: is that while you may think it is water under the bridge...she may not have taken it that way...and behavior that you think is minor, sometimes is not...and aren't you a resident now? if you were my resident 10 years ...??? why are you in residency for 10 years in IM? (plus he went on to do cardiology, so no you are not that resident).
 
rokshana said:
its the world where, women have been doctors for a good 30-40 years (and actually have been attending medical school for over 100 years) and actually make up > 50% of medical school classes and yet younger men (who don't have the excuse that its how it was their experience to see only men as doctors) still have been schooled to think women are only nurses in healthcare....i would imagine if the person was a young man in scrubs " pre rounding" on their pts, they would not have been mistaken for a nurse.

and yes, what kind of world is it, that someone would taken that as learning moment to reassess their mindset and seek to improve as opposed to " oh well":shrug:, it's her problem, not mine...
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That’s great, but that’s not even remotely what I said. I responded to a very specific hypothetical. The only comment I made on the actual topic was supporting that it happens and will probably continue to happen, though more out of ignorance with the younger generation versus more sexism from the older generation.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
That’s great, but that’s not even remotely what I said. I responded to a very specific hypothetical. The only comment I made on the actual topic was supporting that it happens and will probably continue to happen, though more out of ignorance with the younger generation versus more sexism from the older generation.
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you mean from the continued sexism of the younger generation? With > 50% of medical students being female and a significant number of GIM attending being women, the younger generations should be fairly aware that women are physicians...i gets it from the boomer or greatest generation physicians out there having that mindset...its what they experienced and can be difficult to change...but from millennials on...it was not the norm...

as i have stated before, i rarely get mistaken for a nurse, but i know that this is certainly an issue for many female physicians.

your comment was on a silly comparison to downplay the actual issue.
 
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rokshana said:
Are you in the South? We call everyone ma’am… has nothing to do with age… now if you get called Miss your first name? That means you are old!
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Don't get called miss. I have noticed in the past couple of weeks that I have younger patients and when I stop by to round and for example they have family they will say oh this is the doctor blah blah. Maybe as someone pointed out age has something to do with it with older patients being clueless. Not in the South.
 
Redpancreas said:
Hey! I'm a resident who recently mistook his attending for a nurse and pissed her off and took weeks to get on her good side. I'm not sure if you came here expecting an explanation or just someone to listen but if you want to know why I think I did it, it was because the attending was young, she was wearing scrubs (like nurses), and she was pre-rounding unlike most attendings. Additionally, I probably have some subconscious bias towards thinking of a doctor as a male as much as I wish and try to change that perception, the subconcious bias exists. I think the answer lies in your explanation itself (bolded). Subconsciously, others have associated male with physician and females with nurses and the bolded probably contributes to that. Is there something toxic/sexist behind that? That's a nuanced discussion with valid points on both sides. All you can do though is be assertive and correct the ones who mistake you and then how they deal with/internalize that is their own problem.
Click to expand...

Yes there is a bias. I am youngish, I have a young looking face even with a mask, I am also small and wear the more structured scrubs/Cherokee type which tend to be the most petite brand I can find. All the medicine docs are male.
I think there is definitely a lot of bias. It can get annoying. Particularly when it affects patient care, or when patients are so clueless and are like no doctor saw me today. *As I stand there.* Me ---> :|
 
rokshana said:
you mean from the continued sexism of the younger generation? With > 50% of medical students being female and a significant number of GIM attending being women, the younger generations should be fairly aware that women are physicians...i gets it from the boomer or greatest generation physicians out there having that mindset...its what they experienced and can be difficult to change...but from millennials on...it was not the norm...

as i have stated before, i rarely get mistaken for a nurse, but i know that this is certainly an issue for many female physicians.

your comment was on a silly comparison to downplay the actual issue.
Click to expand...
Read what I wrote again. I said the older generation assigning female = nurse is likely most often from sexism (both their own and just the historical sexism that led to physicians being almost entirely male in their formative years), while the younger generation likely is just doing it out of ignorance. I have had so many younger patients have no clue what medical schools produce (ie, physicians versus nurses, etc). I’m male and have been asked by many young patients if I’m going to be a nurse or a PA when I graduate medical school.
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Read what I wrote again. I said the older generation assigning female = nurse is likely most often from sexism (both their own and just the historical sexism that led to physicians being almost entirely male in their formative years), while the younger generation likely is just doing it out of ignorance. I have had so many younger patients have no clue what medical schools produce (ie, physicians versus nurses, etc). I’m male and have been asked by many young patients if I’m going to be a nurse or a PA when I graduate medical school.
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In the past when I was in med school I have also been asked that - even by non patients when I would say I'm in meds school. Oh so you are going to be a nurse? I'm thinking isn't this common sense?
Like if someone said hey I'm in law school. Oh you are going to be an engineer! So ridiculous.
 
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I've had people in the past know for months that I was in med school. Eventually they came out and said "So I know you're in med school but is that to become a pharmacist or something?" When I explained I'm studying to become a "physician, you know a doctor" they were like "Woooow! That's great"
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Read what I wrote again. I said the older generation assigning female = nurse is likely most often from sexism (both their own and just the historical sexism that led to physicians being almost entirely male in their formative years), while the younger generation likely is just doing it out of ignorance. I have had so many younger patients have no clue what medical schools produce (ie, physicians versus nurses, etc). I’m male and have been asked by many young patients if I’m going to be a nurse or a PA when I graduate medical school.
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I read you correctly and disagree… giving the younger generation the excuse of ignorance means that they have an excuse and give them justification.
 
Redpancreas said:
my take on Vitamin D deficiency calling 2000 mg daily (a quite common regimen prescribed) a “homeopathic” dose
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Not to derail this conversation further, but 2000 mg of Vitamin D (cholecalciferol, ergocalciferol) is a gigantic dose, given that Vitamin D is dosed in IU or mcg (and IU are preferred). 2000 IU (50 mcg) daily is a pretty standard maintenance dose, but I routinely prescribe 50,000 IU (1250 mcg) weekly for Vitamin D deficiency.

Please pay attention to units. This is one of the ways medication errors happen :) 2000 mg would probably be caught as weird, but you never know.
 
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mvenus929 said:
Not to derail this conversation further, but 2000 mg of Vitamin D (cholecalciferol, ergocalciferol) is a gigantic dose, given that Vitamin D is dosed in units or mcg (and units are preferred). 2000 IU (50 mcg) daily is a pretty standard maintenance dose, but I routinely prescribe 50,000 IU (1250 mcg) weekly for Vitamin D deficiency.

Please pay attention to units. This is one of the ways medication errors happen :) 2000 mg would probably be caught as weird, but you never know.
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and i totally missed that! details do matter...
 
Ffs women make these mistakes too! I have.

Unconscious bias is a still a thing. Even for the younger generation, because they still consume a fair amount of media that is still made by older folks and still shows bias.

It doesn't make anyone a monster. Just try to work on it is all anyone can do.

I agree it's annoying, but I also think you help yourself if you try to dress "like a doctor." This can mean a few things, and nothing is foolproof, but scrubs and no white coat is just asking to be mistaken for a nurse.

Probably the nicer clinic clothes you wear the better. No one but a doctor dresses like they're going to court (maybe stopping one step short of a full fledged suit) in the hospital for the most part, and looking that crisp can help.

I maintain these things are important for professionalism anyway. I think it's therapeutic to be somewhat formal in any case. Ways to do that beyond just clothes. I think the idea for a business card is a good one as well.
 
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