Job Hunting While Employed

[JBOB]

Good morning, I am a new attending and am trying to navigate how to go about applying for jobs while currently employed. Would you all discuss plans to apply for new jobs with your employer first, or wait until after you have another job offer? I am really just worried about burning bridges and don't want to rub anyone the wrong way.

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[NICMAN]

1) Go hunting, 2) discover what is available based on your other decision criteria (e.g., core values, family, geography, career goals, economics, lifestyle), 3) after gathering information, leverage that information for the best deal. If you plan on weighing your decision between leaving and staying then have a respectful discussion with your employer about your values and long-term goals. If they get angry or offended that you are looking after your best interests then know that this is unreasonable (i.e., THEY need to grow up) and probably a sign that you are in an abusive one-sided employment relationship. If they are smart and value your contribution then they will work to retain you. Retention is MUCH less costly than recruitment of talent.

IF you approach your employer prior to the discovery process then you will not be armed with the information you need to make the decision. It is important to have a very clear idea of both your and your employer's best alternative to a negotiated agreement (or BATNA). Attack their BATNA while strengthening your BATNA. Distinguish between your core INTERESTS in making your decisions (which are not any of your employer's business) and your POSITION that you take as you negotiate.

This isn't a marriage. This is a transactional relationship. Don't be a sucker. They will use every tool, including your misguided sense of loyalty, to extract maximal value while minimizing your compensation. That's the game. Have fun.

 

[GravelRider]

Depends why you are leaving, but I would almost always have at least another option on the table before telling anyone that I’m leaving. However, if there is something inherently unfair about your current employment situation that can and should be changed, it may make sense to tell your employer that you are seriously looking around for jobs. If your job is short-staffed, it may give you a little leverage to get more money or have significant quality of life changes.

At the end of the day, only worry about what is best for your situation and don’t worry about hurting the feelings of an employer. So long as you follow your contract, you won’t be burning any bridges.

 

[anbuitachi]

What do you guys do regarding references since most jobs asked for multiple references

 

[Gasworks]

reminding me of the call I got from my old chairman after envision let him know that I’m transferring out of state. “HOW CAN YOU DO THIS TO ME” says the guy that pocketed ALL of the buyout money and disappeared our old profit sharing pool without an ounce of shame.

 

[MirrorTodd]

reminding me of the call I got from my old chairman after envision let him know that I’m transferring out of state. “HOW CAN YOU DO THIS TO ME” says the guy that pocketed ALL of the buyout money and disappeared our old profit sharing pool without an ounce of shame.

I hope you told him that.

 

[MirrorTodd]

What do you guys do regarding references since most jobs asked for multiple references

You should have some close people that you can use as a reference....like not from your current work place. Or some close people AT your current work place that you can trust not to spread the word.

 

[GassYous]

What do you guys do regarding references since most jobs asked for multiple references

Ask people that are discreet.

 

[GravelRider]

What do you guys do regarding references since most jobs asked for multiple references

OP is probably close enough to residency. Once you’ve been in this long enough, you should probably have friends and other contacts that can provide references. It probably doesn’t even have to be anesthesiologists. I’ve had surgeons provide references for me.

 

[IMGASMD]

It’s only business.
I still give my co-residents references, once in a blue moon, if they really really don’t wanna let their current employer know. Or for a side gig.

 

[Simba1711]

I wouldn’t let your current gig know that you are applying. I would just let them know once new job is secure and follow the notice period from contract. I was surprised at how petty people can be. When people at my other job found out I was leaving they got super butt hurt. They gave me krap for leaving and gave me bad call schedule.

 

[Iso4ane]

On a slightly similar note, how do you approach other groups if you're 'just looking' (i.e you're reasonably happy at your current spot, but are willing to work elsewhere if it's really a lot better)?

 

[Simba1711]

I don’t think it’s big deal if you are looking around. I would just keep it on the dl. I would just be honest with the group you’re interviewing with. ( example looking for different cases , different call load , salary ). The hard part of our practice is that we don’t have a lot of time to interview. Our schedule is unpredictable and I had to schedule my interview on post call days.

 

[linkin06]

On a slightly similar note, how do you approach other groups if you're 'just looking' (i.e you're reasonably happy at your current spot, but are willing to work elsewhere if it's really a lot better)?

i think if you're just having phone and email convo, that's fine. don't go out and interview and make them arrange the day and dinner for you unless you're legitimately interested.

 

[sbmed100]

1) Go hunting, 2) discover what is available based on your other decision criteria (e.g., core values, family, geography, career goals, economics, lifestyle), 3) after gathering information, leverage that information for the best deal. If you plan on weighing your decision between leaving and staying then have a respectful discussion with your employer about your values and long-term goals. If they get angry or offended that you are looking after your best interests then know that this is unreasonable (i.e., THEY need to grow up) and probably a sign that you are in an abusive one-sided employment relationship. If they are smart and value your contribution then they will work to retain you. Retention is MUCH less costly than recruitment of talent.

IF you approach your employer prior to the discovery process then you will not be armed with the information you need to make the decision. It is important to have a very clear idea of both your and your employer's best alternative to a negotiated agreement (or BATNA). Attack their BATNA while strengthening your BATNA. Distinguish between your core INTERESTS in making your decisions (which are not any of your employer's business) and your POSITION that you take as you negotiate.

This isn't a marriage. This is a transactional relationship. Don't be a sucker. They will use every tool, including your misguided sense of loyalty, to extract maximal value while minimizing your compensation. That's the game. Have fun.

@NICMAN the issue with this is the group becomes such that everyone has a "special deal" with carve-outs, different covenants, different call schedules, reimbursement levels, stipends, etc. This leads to tremendous resentment and poor cohesiveness.

 

[IMGASMD]

@NICMAN the issue with this is the group becomes such that everyone has a "special deal" with carve-outs, different covenants, different call schedules, reimbursement levels, stipends, etc. This leads to tremendous resentment and poor cohesiveness.

Maybe when you’re a partner or on partnership track; if I was “just” an employee, I have no qualms asking for special deals.

 

[dizzy21]

1) Go hunting, 2) discover what is available based on your other decision criteria (e.g., core values, family, geography, career goals, economics, lifestyle), 3) after gathering information, leverage that information for the best deal. If you plan on weighing your decision between leaving and staying then have a respectful discussion with your employer about your values and long-term goals. If they get angry or offended that you are looking after your best interests then know that this is unreasonable (i.e., THEY need to grow up) and probably a sign that you are in an abusive one-sided employment relationship. If they are smart and value your contribution then they will work to retain you. Retention is MUCH less costly than recruitment of talent.

IF you approach your employer prior to the discovery process then you will not be armed with the information you need to make the decision. It is important to have a very clear idea of both your and your employer's best alternative to a negotiated agreement (or BATNA). Attack their BATNA while strengthening your BATNA. Distinguish between your core INTERESTS in making your decisions (which are not any of your employer's business) and your POSITION that you take as you negotiate.

This isn't a marriage. This is a transactional relationship. Don't be a sucker. They will use every tool, including your misguided sense of loyalty, to extract maximal value while minimizing your compensation. That's the game. Have fun.

This post is excellent advice. I hate to be overly cynical, but keep the pandemic in mind. As soon as your employer feels it’s in their interest to cut salaries, furlough, lay off or throw you into the wards with inadequate PPE during a pandemic they will do that while hiding in their basement on a zoom call calling you a hero. You owe them what’s in your contract and nothing more.

It’s a transactional relationship. Don’t worry about hurting their feelings. Do what’s best for you and you’ll be happy and your future employer will also be happy if they can offer you a deal good enough to hire and retain you.

As an aside from my rant. The anesthesia world is super small. I sent my CV somewhere once and they immediately started texting people at my current practice asking about me. Don’t be surprised if your boss finds out before you tell him or her, but it’s not a big deal and nothing they haven’t dealt with before. Keep you and your family’s best interests in mind and you’ll be in good shape.

 

[Twiggidy]

What do you guys do regarding references since most jobs asked for multiple references

You just ask for a references from colleagues you’re on good terms with at your current place. If your entire group is that petty that they won’t write a reference it either says something about YOU or THEM.

An employer should always be somewhat understanding that people’s situations change and if they’re wanting to sabotage you for some competitive reason again that’s says something about them

 

[Twiggidy]

OP is probably close enough to residency. Once you’ve been in this long enough, you should probably have friends and other contacts that can provide references. It probably doesn’t even have to be anesthesiologists. I’ve had surgeons provide references for me.

There’s a solid argument that these references may be more important that a reference from another anesthesiologist

 

[dizzy21]

There’s a solid argument that these references may be more important that a reference from another anesthesiologist

Some private practices require a surgeon reference.

 

[Twiggidy]

Some private practices require a surgeon reference.

All practices probably should. Who knows better how you works than the actual surgeons you work with vs another anesthesiologist in the room down the hall? I have partners in my practice that I know absolutely nothing about and sometimes when I peek my head in rooms and watch inductions or some procedures I’m like “whoa”. It’s real funny how much we actually don’t know much about the actual anesthesia skills of our colleagues.

 

[DocVapor]

All practices probably should. Who knows better how you works than the actual surgeons you work with vs another anesthesiologist in the room down the hall? I have partners in my practice that I know absolutely nothing about and sometimes when I peek my head in rooms and watch inductions or some procedures I’m like “whoa”. It’s real funny how much we actually don’t know much about the actual anesthesia skills of our colleagues.

Agreed. I think it should go the other way too as surgeons are similarly insulated from each other.

I actually have been asked by a surgeon to provide a reference for them and did so happily (for that surgeon).

 

[GravelRider]

All practices probably should. Who knows better how you works than the actual surgeons you work with vs another anesthesiologist in the room down the hall? I have partners in my practice that I know absolutely nothing about and sometimes when I peek my head in rooms and watch inductions or some procedures I’m like “whoa”. It’s real funny how much we actually don’t know much about the actual anesthesia skills of our colleagues.

Yup. And “whoa” is probably an understatement in those situations.

 

[nimbus]

1. I’ve written plenty of reference letters for people in our practice. We’ve had plenty of people move on from our practice, that’s part of life. As said above, it’s a job, not a marriage. My personal belief is that everyone can and should pursue whatever will make them happy/fulfilled/satisfied. If they’re a good anesthesiologist and a good person, I will happily write a strong letter. If I can’t write a strong letter or provide a strong reference, I will decline.

2. We’ve also had plenty of people people try other practices/settings and return. We actually have someone who left twice and came back twice 😂. We gladly accept returnees especially during these times when it’s hard to find good people.

 

[Twiggidy]

1. I’ve written plenty of reference letters for people in our practice. We’ve had plenty of people move on from our practice, that’s part of life. As said above, it’s a job, not a marriage. My personal belief is that everyone can and should pursue whatever will make them happy/fulfilled/satisfied. If they’re a good anesthesiologist and a good person, I will happily write a strong letter. If I can’t write a strong letter or provide a strong reference, I will decline.

2. We’ve also had plenty of people people try other practices/settings and return. We actually have someone who left twice and came back twice 😂. We gladly accept returnees especially during these times when it’s hard to find good people.

I’ll say this.
That’s actually pretty decent of your practice to let people go test the waters and welcome them back. In my experience people in this field can be petty and it’s nice to know some out there aren’t.

 

[GassYous]

I’ll say this.
That’s actually pretty decent of your practice to let people go test the waters and welcome them back. In my experience people in this field can be petty and it’s nice to know some out there aren’t.

That group has a pretty decent rep. Just expensive to live there.

 

[MirrorTodd]

That group has a pretty decent rep. Just expensive to live there.

I really need to finish up with the Army and contact them. Everything I've read from Nimbus' posts just seems ideal for me and my family.

 

[BLADEMDA]

I really need to finish up with the Army and contact them. Everything I've read from Nimbus' posts just seems ideal for me and my family.

Except for the high taxes and 2.5 million cost for a home for your family.

 

[MirrorTodd]

Except for the high taxes and 2.5 million cost for a home for your family.

Oh that's already been budgeted for.