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Distended abdomen and pain. Passing a little bit of gas. No nausea or vomiting. No NG tube. Here for colonoscopy and decompression. Do you intubate these cases by default?
Distended abdomen and pain. Passing a little bit of gas. No nausea or vomiting. No NG tube. Here for colonoscopy and decompression. Do you intubate these cases by default?
Why not just put an NGT in, suction and and keep to suction? The abdomen is distended for a reason. Why take that chance? No way if a massive aspiration happens you won’t be writing a check and feel guilty as hell.Distended abdomen and pain. Passing a little bit of gas. No nausea or vomiting. No NG tube. Here for colonoscopy and decompression. Do you intubate these cases by default?
The GI doc was being diligent and trying to do no harm to the patient and protect both your asses.My assessment was that patients risk of aspiration was relatively low. And certainly large bowel obstruction / or pseudoobstruction is felt to be lower risk of aspiration than small bowel obstruction. No nausea or vomiting. No burping. Pt has been passing more gas and some stools and bloating has improved somewhat pointing to resolving ogilives.
Case was booked for MAC which I felt reasonably comfortable with, then the GI doc said he actually wanted GA so the pt got tubed. Uneventful case. Before extubation, I dropped an OG tube with less than 50 cc output.
I didn't explicitly question the GI docs rationale for GA vs MAC, although I assume it was a combination of aspiration concern, getting optimal scoping conditions, plus possibility of bowel perforation (certainly a higher risk compared to usual colonoscopies) if the patient moved around /bucked / intraabd pressure much during the case.
100. This is ridiculous question and rationale to read from an anesthesiologist. They don’t bully me when I want to intubate. An extra five minutes is worth it.Personally I Don’t **** around with aspiration risk. I don’t care if it takes a little extra time and is a bit more expensive (roc sugammadex). I refuse to be the last person that a patient talks to before their string of disasters that leads to their death.
I’m
The GI doc was being diligent and trying to do no harm to the patient and protect both your asses.
Why even question it? This should be a You thing. A You thought process. Not the GIs because we all know they like doing stupid stuff. I like this GI and you should be thankful he or she actually cares.
It's the only thing that drug is good for these days.Neostigmine
Neostigmine for acute colonic pseudo-obstruction: A meta-analysis
Acute colonic pseudo-obstruction (ACPO) is an uncommon condition that occasionally develops in hospitalized patients with serious underlying ailments. Its early recognition is essential to reduce life-threatening complications. Few low-powered randomized ...www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
There was a legend shared at my training hospital about a patient coding in the ICU after a resident supposedly pushed a bunch of neostigmine to treat Ogilvie's.It's the only thing that drug is good for these days.
Saw it work once when I was a resident in the ICU, and it was a sight to behold. From a safe distance. The patient sure hated it though.
Neostigmine to treat what? Probably not a legend. I am sure it happened.There was a legend shared at my training hospital about a patient coding in the ICU after a resident supposedly pushed a bunch of neostigmine to treat neostigmine.
Corrected my postNeostigmine to treat what? Probably not a legend. I am sure it happened.
It's the only thing that drug is good for these days.
Saw it work once when I was a resident in the ICU, and it was a sight to behold. From a safe distance. The patient sure hated it though.
There was a legend shared at my training hospital about a patient coding in the ICU after a resident supposedly pushed a bunch of neostigmine to treat Ogilvie's.
Epi on backorder?One of my colleagues responded to a cardiac arrest code on the floor after neostigmine was used for this indication. Atropine reportedly given without effect. Patient couldn't be resuscitated.
It works that fast? Damn!! That’s a site to see.Saw it a few times in ICU fellowship. Make sure the patient is on a bedpan when you give it.
Epi on backorder?
It was within 5 minutes. The ICU nurse got the neostigmine bedside, wanted me to push it. I did, HR was fine. I walked down the hall to check other things, then walked back 5-10 min later and liquid shi-shi was collecting on the floor at the foot of the bed.It works that fast? Damn!! That’s a site to see.
A coresident of mine used to bolus it if the urology resident was a dick.It works that fast? Damn!! That’s a site to see.
With the proper chaser I hope? Because why would you risk a patients life to prove a point? This is childish and disgusting.A coresident of mine used to bolus it if the urology resident was a dick.
One of my colleagues responded to a cardiac arrest code on the floor after neostigmine was used for this indication. Atropine reportedly given without effect. Patient couldn't be resuscitated.
With the proper chaser I hope? Because why would you risk a patients life to prove a point? This is childish and disgusting.
From the “when I was an IM resident” files…
When I was a 2nd year resident, our team had an attending who was very old-timey (he was well into his 80s). One morning during rounds (I was post call), he says “you know, you guys don’t get to have much fun as residents anymore. See, when we were on call, we used to have “DKA races”. You tried to beat your co residents to close the gap as soon as possible. Of course, once or twice we had someone go hypokalemic, and code”.
We all looked at him horrified.
“But they were quickly resuscitated.”
I bet they offed a few patients back in the day with the attendings all supervising from home. And now the pendulum may have swung to the opposite extreme of constantly babying residents.From the “when I was an IM resident” files…
When I was a 2nd year resident, our team had an attending who was very old-timey (he was well into his 80s). One morning during rounds (I was post call), he says “you know, you guys don’t get to have much fun as residents anymore. See, when we were on call, we used to have “DKA races”. You tried to beat your co residents to close the gap as soon as possible. Of course, once or twice we had someone go hypokalemic, and code”.
We all looked at him horrified.
“But they were quickly resuscitated.”
Back in ye not-so-olden days before sugammadex, I think every residency program in the country had at least one CA1 every year who thought he'd try not giving the glycopyrrolate with the neostigmine in order to fix tachycardia he should've fixed with opioids or beta blockers ...I was a med student when I saw it for the first time too. Patient was awake and they gave neostigmine guy shat his pants immediately. They had atropine bedside in case **** hit the fan.
Did it as a CA2 to a teen who was a heart transplant recipient, in for some minor-ish procedure. Went, "hey, the heart is chemically denervated, he won't get bradycardic..." *whistles innocently away from the PACU*Back in ye not-so-olden days before sugammadex, I think every residency program in the country had at least one CA1 every year who thought he'd try not giving the glycopyrrolate with the neostigmine in order to fix tachycardia he should've fixed with opioids or beta blockers ...
After the predictably juicy arrival in PACU, the story gets told and everybody goes "duh you idiot" and then it doesn't happen again until the next year when a new batch of CA1s show up all bright eyed and enthusiastic about using pharmacology side effects to their advantage.
I am old enough to have used succinylcholine infusions for short cases requiring relaxation. Amazingly no one died. Now, doing hearts and giving versed/high dose fentanyl/vecuronium? That was sometimes exciting.Eh I once saw a person get 100 of insulin and they were fine
We did it too a bit. Worked greatI am old enough to have used succinylcholine infusions for short cases requiring relaxation. Amazingly no one died.
I am also old enough, barely, and remember the occasional attending using them. They'd add a bit of methylene blue to the bag of succ to be a visual marker.I am old enough to have used succinylcholine infusions for short cases requiring relaxation. Amazingly no one died. Now, doing hearts and giving versed/high dose fentanyl/vecuronium? That was sometimes exciting.
So…you were studying for Step 1 in 2008 and people were using the above after that year? Where? I thought this was a thing of the 90s.I am also old enough, barely, and remember the occasional attending using them. They'd add a bit of methylene blue to the bag of succ to be a visual marker.
Mivacurium was available too, but they did the succ infusions anyway. Seemed like a lot of effort for not much point.
I was an intern in 2002. Still had mivacurium and halothane vaporizers. Spent 3 years as a GMO in the military after that and then started residency in 2006.So…you were studying for Step 1 in 2008 and people were using the above after that year? Where? I thought this was a thing of the 90s.
Sometimes I think the generic rocuronium in our carts might fit that description.We used to say mivacurium cost 10 times as much as saline and worked two times better.
I sure hope it is cheap considering how poorly it seems to work.Sometimes I think the generic rocuronium in our carts might fit that description.
I sure hope it is cheap considering how poorly it seems to work.
As an aside regarding poorly functioning rocuronium, I am convinced that it is a function of how long its left out of the fridge here. From what I recall reading through the product insert many years ago during a long flap case as a resident, the effectiveness decreases measurably when left out of the fridge for more than 14 days. Our pharmacy does not date when the rocuronium comes out of the fridge, and is put it in the pyxis, just when it expires.
I suspect you're right.As an aside regarding poorly functioning rocuronium, I am convinced that it is a function of how long its left out of the fridge here. From what I recall reading through the product insert many years ago during a long flap case as a resident, the effectiveness decreases measurably when left out of the fridge for more than 14 days. Our pharmacy does not date when the rocuronium comes out of the fridge, and is put it in the pyxis, just when it expires.