Anyone really not like their med school

[Mr. Rosewater]

and is willing to share which and why. As it comes time for many of us preallos to make our final choices, i thought a thread like this might help. on interview days everyone always seems really rosey, but maybe here we can get some dirt. thanks to anyone who takes the time to answer.

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[Entei]

You don't need to hear me say this, but I would take jwins' (or anyone's) complaints with a grain of salt. Everyone has things about their school that they really like and other things that they don't really like.

In my case, for example, we are pass/fail for the first year (which is great), but we also have the block style scheduling of exams (which I find not so great).

I'm a "big picture" person. I have trouble remembering a bunch of details if I can't make a connection to see why they're important. Because of this shortcoming on my part, I have trouble keeping up with material sometimes. I'll get behind because I wind up waiting to hear the whole story on renal physiology for example, before I start focusing on the details of what aldosterone's effects are on GFR or RPF or [K+]. What winds up happening in my case is that I'll spend five weeks out of a six week block just spinning my wheels not really knowing too much, and then the last week will be spent in a panicked frenzy trying to memorize every detail for not just one, but maybe five or six classes. In my case, I am COUNTING THE DAYS until next year when we switch to a staggered exam schedule because, while I'll still be cramming in a lot of information during that last week, at least I'll only have to do it for one class at a time.

There are a lot of people here who absolutely love block scheduling. I thought I would love it too, but it wound up making me more stressed out than I should be. No school is perfect, but I don't think any of them are absolutely terrible either. Go with your gut or your heart or your wallet, but go and never look back. That's probably what will wind up making you the happiest. Good luck with your decision.

 

[jwin]

Originally posted by Entei
You don't need to hear me say this, but I would take jwins' (or anyone's) complaints with a grain of salt. Everyone has things about their school that they really like and other things that they don't really like.

In my case, for example, we are pass/fail for the first year (which is great), but we also have the block style scheduling of exams (which I find not so great).

I'm a "big picture" person. I have trouble remembering a bunch of details if I can't make a connection to see why they're important. Because of this shortcoming on my part, I have trouble keeping up with material sometimes. I'll get behind because I wind up waiting to hear the whole story on renal physiology for example, before I start focusing on the details of what aldosterone's effects are on GFR or RPF or [K+]. What winds up happening in my case is that I'll spend five weeks out of a six week block just spinning my wheels not really knowing too much, and then the last week will be spent in a panicked frenzy trying to memorize every detail for not just one, but maybe five or six classes. In my case, I am COUNTING THE DAYS until next year when we switch to a staggered exam schedule because, while I'll still be cramming in a lot of information during that last week, at least I'll only have to do it for one class at a time.

There are a lot of people here who absolutely love block scheduling. I thought I would love it too, but it wound up making me more stressed out than I should be. No school is perfect, but I don't think any of them are absolutely terrible either. Go with your gut or your heart or your wallet, but go and never look back. That's probably what will wind up making you the happiest. Good luck with your decision.

the factors i mentioned are not my preferences, they are facts that will affect the quality of your life during the first two years. if you spend more time in class, you will have less time to study and you will have more material that you are responsible for. if you are on pass/fail, you do not have to know every little freaking detail which is subject to the law of diminishing returns. 10 hours to pass, 20 hours to high pass, 40 hours to honor. whether you realize it or not, block schedules free up a lot of time even though the period before your blocks is rough. our 2nd years have blocks, and they all agree they have more opportunity to have fun on weekends. in general, almost no one in my class went out (even to a freaking movie) for almost the last 2 months of last semester. that happens when you have around 8 weeks and 8 tests.

 

[Entei]

Jwin, of course those are your preferences. If they were hardcore facts, as you claim, then why would your school continue to have such a curriculum if everyone finds it so miserable and unproductive? They don't do it just to torture the poor MS1s.

Some people actually learn in lecture, so being in class for more hours doesn't necessarily equal more misery and less studying. On the other hand, there are people who don't like lectures at all, and they study at home instead. And just because one school has more hours of lecture doesn't mean that those students are responsible for more material. To use my school as an example again, we're usually done with lecture by 12 or 1, but that doesn't mean we're responsible for less material than a school that goes until 5. We just have less of it covered during lecture. Having scheduled 9-5 lectures everyday also doesn't mean that you have to go to all of them; you have to do what works for you.

While I'm at it, I'll comment on the pass/fail grading too. You and I both agree that it's a great system, but I know of several people who are unhappy with it at my school. They fall into two camps: those that, since they put in the extra effort to get an H, feel they should be acknowledged with that H, and those that are frustrated with the "artificial" difficulty added to exams that are designed to be "only" passed since "they're-impossible-to-honor-anyway-and-that's-why-we-don't-have-honors-here."

My point is that everyone has to find out for themselves what works for them. When I was in the OP's shoes, I got hung up on a lot of SDNers' opinions on what the ideal med school curriculum was. I've since come to find that I have very individual preferences about how I learn best, and some stranger posting on a message board, even with the best of intentions, can't really tell me what I like. Consequently, I'm not trying to tell you that you should or shouldn't like your school's curriculum. Obviously, there are things about it that you don't like, but just because they aren't helpful for you doesn't mean that everyone else will feel that way. If I had a staggered schedule, I don't think it would really eat into my free time all that much. I would still be studying x amount of hours per exam, but instead of it being 4-5x hours compressed into one week, it would be just 1x every week. It wouldn't free up time, certainly, but it would do a lot for my stress level. Obviously, we have different tastes and study styles.

Originally posted by jwin
the factors i mentioned are not my preferences, they are facts that will affect the quality of your life during the first two years. if you spend more time in class, you will have less time to study and you will have more material that you are responsible for. if you are on pass/fail, you do not have to know every little freaking detail which is subject to the law of diminishing returns. 10 hours to pass, 20 hours to high pass, 40 hours to honor. whether you realize it or not, block schedules free up a lot of time even though the period before your blocks is rough. our 2nd years have blocks, and they all agree they have more opportunity to have fun on weekends. in general, almost no one in my class went out (even to a freaking movie) for almost the last 2 months of last semester. that happens when you have around 8 weeks and 8 tests.

 

[Jalby]

My .02, not on the OP's question but the fight that is breaking out. You guys are two different people who like two different things, and I'd be willing to bet you guys would like to trade schools right now. I just wanted to comment on the 2 big subjects, P/F and blocks.


I'm block person, and entei, you are the first person who I heard who would rather have the staggered. But it totally makes sense what you are saying. One thing you might want to do in the future is get Step Up, a systems review book, and read what you are about to stady before the block (1 hour) so that you have the big picture going into it. That would help a ton. But I am a huge fan of the block scedual for the reasons jwin mentioned. I do feel like that after each test, there is no stress on you until you feel like you need to start studying for the next test. Hense, my school tends to go out tons the first 2-3 weeks of each 5 week block. I do feel like you are the exception. All of my friends at staggered schools (which tend to be schools that havn't changed thier curric in 20 years) don't like it for reasons mentioned above.


As for the P/F versus grades, grades help out the people who are at the top of the class because they get recognized. in a P/F school, they prolly would still get rocognized when they take the boards, and this would be more heavily weighed. It puts a lot more emphasis on this test because it basically is the only thing grading you on your first two years.

The mid level people, P/F helps because they don't have to worry about honoring and can just study stuff that they think will most likely be on the boards (If they feel so inclinced) They don't have to worry about ranking to much (see my posts on P/f schools and rankings) and can relax more because they won't be fighting for a grade every 5-6 weeks.

That's my opinion on the stuff. I can't really comment on the OP's question. I actually really like my school.

 

[jwin]

jalby's post says it all, even though he doesn't know it: he likes his school.

try to find people who are in class 9-5, staggered exams, and on a grading system that are really enjoying med school. they will be difficult to find. of course you will get the occasional masochistic freak (who will probably post right after me), who enjoys having work and class that just never ends, but i think they are exceptions. don't get me wrong, i am thrilled that i get to go to med school, i would still rather be doing this than anything else, but i do have to tell myself quite frequently that i only have to keep up this routine for another year, because it is exhausting. fine, these may be my preferences, but i am pretty sure i could get 85% of my class to agree with me.

i am done posting on this matter, the second you try to give any advice, you get hammered on here.

 

[SilverAngel1110]

i am going to echo the sentiments of several others here and say that i wish i had given more consideration to several factors when i decided where to go:

1 - H/HP/P/F vs. P/F
2 - number of hours in class
3 - block exams vs. staggered exams
4 - systems based vs. problem based vs. traditional curriculum, etc etc.

of course, at the time when i made my decision, there were a lot of other factors that weighed heavily, as well. i don't regret my decision, but i do look at it a lot differently now, and, in retrospect, i wish someone had pointed out to me that these things might be important later. bottom line is, however, that just because some people on this forum are unhappy at a given school doesn't necessarily mean that you'd be unhappy at that same school. i mean, i HATE that we are on the H/HP/P/F system, and that we spend a ton of time in lecture, but other people in my class don't seem to mind these things. it all comes down to what is important to you, and the only advice i can give is to figure out what your priorities are and go from there, but make sure you explore ALL aspects of the issue. if you can/want to, talk to a bunch of med students so you get a broad idea of things to consider when making your decision. don't necessarily ask for their opinions about these things, just ask what factors they think are important to look at. (i already told you the things i wished i had given more thought). but as long as you make the decision based on what YOU want, it will be the right one for you. good luck.

 

[Entei]

Wow. I certainly wasn't trying to cause any fights. I was just trying to tell the OP that while advice from people on this board might be helpful, it shouldn't really make or break his opinion on a school. I know I worried a little too much about what the people on SDN thought about school A vs. school B when I was a pre med, and I was trying to prevent a similar situation from happening. I probably shouldn't have posted on this thread to begin with since for the record I am very happy at my school. But since I just finished with a round of exams, what else am I going to do but complain about classes?

 

[Gleevec]

While I think a lot of the reasons everyone here is giving are very useful and poignant for current medical students, and I appreciate everyone taking their time to answer this thread, I think there is a disconnect in this thread.

As a medical student, you are already in medical school and are settled there. Matters of actually being accepted, cost, location, rank, personal issues, etc have already been settled for current medical students (issues that pre-allos have to deal with first before they can start dealing with curricula minutae).

So while I think its really useful to consider curricula as stated, most people really dont have that luxury, and even if we do, there are a lot of other factors affecting med school choice as a pre-allo as opposed to being a current student.

Just to add, I hear another thing students should ask at interviews is about how 3rd year rotations are organized, amount of scut, overnight shifts, etc. However, its really hard to ask about those questions when we are already inundated with a variety of pre-clinical curricula as well as the stress of touring around a foreign campus only to attend an interview later.

To be honest, I have no idea why I posted this. I just think there is a disconnect between the kinds of things that make pre-allos choose schools, and the things that allos wish they could have looked at. Unfortunately, most people either dont have the choices to pick schools all the way down to the grading system.

In any case, thanks for all the info about different grading system and whatnot. Though it is very interesting, it seems to me that it would be a very rare circumstance that all the other factors a preallo looks at when looking for schools (being accepted there, cost, location, reputation) would be so equal that you can actually choose a school based on curricula. Then again, it could just be that Im not that lucky.

Thanks for all the posts though! It does make for interesting reading.

 

[the_equalizer]

I think the OP was trying to ask whether there are any schools that they should avoid if they were to get accepted there. If this was the case, then I really don't think there's going to be a decent anwer given.

Gleevec, you're a good guy, so this is what I say should be considered when picking a school.

First off, have an idea of what you want to do in the future. I don't want to start the whole you can do any residency from any school thing, but if you want a super competitive residency then go to a top 10 that you may enjoy less than your state school. This only applies if it'll help you get into a residency that will lead to a career that you think you will enjoy more than others.

That being said, you want to look at curricula and scheduling and class hours and all that if you have the choice and the chance to pick btw schools. Pick the program that you think you could fit into best. Do you need grades to work hard? If so, don't go P/F, even if it seems like it would be "easier" for you now. When you're in the P/F system and realize that you can't study because there aren't any grades, you're going to wish you went to a graded school.

Are you a self learner who usually skips class? Go somewhere with little class, maybe even P/F. Are you the "big picture" type who really doesn't want to get super deep into anything unless they think they're going to specialize in it (this applies to the "Is this relevant?" and "How will we use this in the future?" types). If so, go P/F, that way you won't be hurt for skipping details.

See bro, curriculum and class scheduling may be the most important differentiation btw med schools.I picked my school for their curriculum. It makes all the difference in the world that you can fit into the program that your school uses. Who the hell cares where you went if you couldn't get any work done there because you need competition? What matters is that you learn, and learn well, that you learn in the manner that you are most apt to do so. Thus, the curriculum of your school is paramount, absolutely crucial. If one has the ability to choose btw schools, I strongly strongly advise to give the curriculum/scheduling systems extremely high priority in their decision.

 

[banannie]

I say consider curriculum, but only 50% as much as you think you should. Because you know, it's only going to be 2 out of your 4 years at medical school. Please keep that in mind. Besides, those are the 2 least important years of your medical education. The main purpose of that time is to grasp some concepts and get some vocabulary. It'll be over before you know it.

Above all, get perspectives from people who've completed their medical education, not just those in the midst of their preclinical years. I am willing to bet that every single person who's given an opinion on this thread will have a completely different perspective in 2-3 years.

 

[Jalby]

Originally posted by the_equalizer

See bro, curriculum and class scheduling may be the most important differentiation btw med schools.

I concur. I think this is one of the reasons that UCSD people are always so unhappy (from the ones I have personally talked to)

 

[UCSBMed1]

Could you guys explain to me the block scheduling thing vs. staggered schedule?

My school has a midterm week where we have our exams every other day. Where does that fit in?

 

[souljah1]

our material is integrated (a kind of systems-based approach) and we have one multiple choice test about every 3 weeks that is strictly pass/fail. gotta say that i have really been pleased with my first two years. we have tons of free time to study, relax, exercise, do clinical stuff, etc. i think i would be having a much rougher time if i had a bunch of staggered exams or a week with a bunch of exams (reminds me of undergrad finals week).

 

[Jalby]

Originally posted by UCSBMed1
Could you guys explain to me the block scheduling thing vs. staggered schedule?

My school has a midterm week where we have our exams every other day. Where does that fit in?

This sounds like a block sched. Basically they try to clup together all the tests. How often do you have these midterms??

 

[UCSBMed1]

But its not really a "block" as I understand it. I guess its like undergrad: 3 classes with a midterm week and a final week, every class every other day (or 3 days/week). Might be a little rough, but its not that bad. Still only have about 4 hours of class a day, and we have pretty high USLME passing rates, so it must be working.

 

[Gleevec]

Wow, I guess I didnt realize how important this stuff (curricula, grading) is. In a way, Im just so grateful to get into a few places that I really havent looked into the specifics (and also, since there is a huge cost differential for me between similarly reputable schools). But definitely very useful, moreso than I though initially.

Thanks for the info!

Also, what do you guys think about the schools with abbreviated preclinical curricula (like Duke with 1 year, and Penn/Baylor with 1.5 years)?

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

thanks to all who have contributed so far. this kind of thing really helps those of us who are making our final choices.

 

[Jalby]

Originally posted by Gleevec
Also, what do you guys think about the schools with abbreviated preclinical curricula (like Duke with 1 year, and Penn/Baylor with 1.5 years)?

They are great if you thinkyou can own medical school. I really wanted to end up with a compressed sched. You don't get taught everything that you would get at other schools, so when you study for the boards you have to study harder, but it gives you a huge advantage in the fact you start rotations earlier and you can do research etc in the spare time.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by Jalby
They are great if you thinkyou can own medical school. I really wanted to end up with a compressed sched. You don't get taught everything that you would get at other schools, so when you study for the boards you have to study harder, but it gives you a huge advantage in the fact you start rotations earlier and you can do research etc in the spare time.

That's interesting, because some students have told me they spend more time studying from board review books since the compressed time leaves them more responsible for the higher yield material, and less so for other details covered in regular texts. But I guess there are both advantages and disadvantages to each.

Its weird though (the studying harder part) since supposedly Penn and Baylor have avg USMLE of around 235ish. But that might have more to do with taking USMLEs after a few big rotations, rather than as a prereq to starting them.

 

[ForceField]

Gleevec, don't worry about the average USMLEs at the schools. You've been accepted to some damn good schools, which probably means you're an intelligent individual. You should go wherever you think you'll be the happiest, and which has the most conducive academic environment for YOU. The bottom line is that you'll have to work hard, which you will, and then you'll get a good USMLE and ultimately a good residency. Don't expect the school to give you the Step I score... it will be contingent upon your work. Even at the crappiest schools there are students acing Step I and landing residencies at Mayo, Mass General etc. Bottom line, work hard... but while you're at it, since you're lucky enough to have many good choices, pick where you think you'll be happiest and will do your best. Hope this helps.

 

[Stinger86]

Originally posted by ForceField
Even at the crappiest schools there are students acing Step I and landing residencies at Mayo, Mass General etc.

Agreed.

 

[Acro Yali]

I didn't read the whole thread but thought I could offer some opinion since I am a MS4.

Whether you want to go in to a competitive residency vs. non-competitive residency, for the first two years, I think quality of life should definitely number 1 on your list. I didn't like how my school did its first two years because we had weekly tests, which are scheduled on Mondays, making you spend the whole weekend studying and not get a weekend off for 4 weeks at at time (when we switch blocks). I didn't have a true H/P/F system, so everyone still gunned for that extra 0.5% on tests, making the class dynamic quite competitive. I also felt our curriulum didn't allow enough time for step 1 when most other programs allow 8 weeks to study for it. I also think PBL is overrated. Its useful as 1 block, but overkill if >1. But I think the first 2 years will be busy no matter where you are. Enjoy your free time while you have it... even watching a movie becomes a luxury. In the end, a lot of the details you learned in the first two years are just useless. Sometimes I felt as though we were learning some of the details only so we can be tested on them, not necessarily that they will be crucial in patient management (unless I go into sports medicine or ortho, do I really need to know all the muscles of the forearm?).

For 3rd year, definitely look at how its set up. My schedule turned out to have some disciplines spread out by as much as 3 months, so I ended up rotating/studying for some rotations twice. You need to ask what the end service exam is as well (are they shelves-more useful, or are they in-department questions, useless in my opinion). One thing I hate about 3rd year was the lack of direction in what to study from (I was even told once to just read what I want to read and should do fine on the test?). If they have a designated textbook, that would be awesome.

4th, play as much as you can.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by ForceField
Gleevec, don't worry about the average USMLEs at the schools. You've been accepted to some damn good schools, which probably means you're an intelligent individual. You should go wherever you think you'll be the happiest, and which has the most conducive academic environment for YOU. The bottom line is that you'll have to work hard, which you will, and then you'll get a good USMLE and ultimately a good residency. Don't expect the school to give you the Step I score... it will be contingent upon your work. Even at the crappiest schools there are students acing Step I and landing residencies at Mayo, Mass General etc. Bottom line, work hard... but while you're at it, since you're lucky enough to have many good choices, pick where you think you'll be happiest and will do your best. Hope this helps.

Thanks for the info!

Yeah, Im just trying to get a feel for what the key differences between schools are, Ive pretty much been decided for quite a while (based on being able to go to school in my hometown at good tuition). Just want to make sure I know what Im getting into though

Thanks again.

 

[Adcadet]

love my school. My only complaint is the number of hours in lecture/lab. MS1 year is ~15 hours of lecture per week plus labs/demos/practicals in the afternoons. Personally I love being done at noon so I can go study on my own (or goof off), but this happens only~2 times/week on average. Oh well.

Rumor on the street is that every out of stater accepted from now on will get in-state tuition.

 

[Jalby]

Originally posted by Adcadet

Rumor on the street is that every out of stater accepted from now on will get in-state tuition.

In the face of the budget cuts most states are facing, that's pretty amazing.

 

[Adcadet]

Originally posted by Jalby
In the face of the budget cuts most states are facing, that's pretty amazing.

Yes it is. It seems the administration is set on increasing the number of out-of-state people that come. From what I can tell, the number of out-of-staters has been increasing recently as is the avg. GPA and MCAT of incoming students. I believe for the class of 2007 the number of applications was up 14% or so (much more than the national avg) and it looks like we're up a bunch more for the class of 2008. And for my class at least, we're scoring significantly better than previous years on exams. I'm very curious to see how much of an increase in board scores this produces. My thought is that the U of MN is on the way up.

 

[Adcadet]

info: http://www.meded.umn.edu/admissions/statistics.htm
looks like for the class entering in 2003, there was a 20.8% increase in the number of applicants compared to a 3.4% increase nationally.

 

[pikachu]

Seems like a lot of the posters here are in the preclinical years so I will drop some brief advice: Take a quick look at the third and fourth year curriculum, and see how much time you'll be spending in the outpatient/primary care setting. For me it's 23 weeks (close to 6 months) plus every other afternoon throughout third year. Beware of such institutions if you want to be a specialist!!! Also, at schools which place a heavy emphasis on primary care, the administration is often less supportive of students who want to specialize (at least my administration doesn't seem to give an FOBT about us). Even if you are interested in primary care, I have found that you learn much less in the outpatient setting (you see the same common problems again and again and don't learn how to manage people who are truly sick).

Did I mention that 8/23 weeks (at my large state school in the northeast) are mandated during your senior year (when many schools don't have many requirements at all, just that you complete a certain amount of elective rotations)? Here you have no choice when the rotation happens, and limited choice where you go. Many state schools have similar requirements and it behooves you to find out early (i.e., BEFORE you enroll) so you won't be kicking yourself like I am. And believe me I am.

 

[carrigallen]

Originally posted by Mr Reddly
In between blows, could you guys jump on over here in the pre-allos P/F vs grade - Block vs non - 9-12 vs 9-5 and list your schools info? Pretty paleezzz.

with pleasure =)

 

[Mr. Rosewater]

Originally posted by pikachu
Seems like a lot of the posters here are in the preclinical years so I will drop some brief advice: Take a quick look at the third and fourth year curriculum, and see how much time you'll be spending in the outpatient/primary care setting. For me it's 23 weeks (close to 6 months) plus every other afternoon throughout third year. Beware of such institutions if you want to be a specialist!!! Also, at schools which place a heavy emphasis on primary care, the administration is often less supportive of students who want to specialize (at least my administration doesn't seem to give an FOBT about us). Even if you are interested in primary care, I have found that you learn much less in the outpatient setting (you see the same common problems again and again and don't learn how to manage people who are truly sick).

Did I mention that 8/23 weeks (at my large state school in the northeast) are mandated during your senior year (when many schools don't have many requirements at all, just that you complete a certain amount of elective rotations)? Here you have no choice when the rotation happens, and limited choice where you go. Many state schools have similar requirements and it behooves you to find out early (i.e., BEFORE you enroll) so you won't be kicking yourself like I am. And believe me I am.

this is the kind of info i'm really curious about. could you share which school this is? thanks alot.

 

[Odaroloc]

It seems really difficult to get people to mention their school...the other info is useful, but knowing bad/good things + school would be better...

 

[pikachu]

Fellow travelers,

I would love to trash my school by name online but it just doesn't feel right. (some lingering sense of professional ethics I guess?) Just look carefully if you are going to ANY state school, because due to constraints about how they get funding and official designations as "The State School," often they have requirements for their students that private schools do not.

also, erratum in my first post: my primary care clinic is not every other day, but one afternoon every other week. It would be a lot less of a pain if there was less clinic time throughout the other rotations...you figure out very quickly whether or not you like outpatient medicine...