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Hallelujah! Hallelujah! A second lease on med school!
- Thread starter devildoc2
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Glad to hear that you got a second chance and that you seem appreciative. Doesn't sound like they're the types to give you a third chance though, so kick butt this next year. This really will be it for you, last chance I mean. If you really are in the right place, show them that they made the best choice.
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hallelujah indeed! I know this is a time for celebration for you but i think also it is a time for self-reflection.
Forgive me for the assumptions that are inherent in the following statements I'm going to make.
Most medschool are very forgiving. I know people that have failed several exams yet my med school has done everything within its power to help carry the student through. Why then, with you, they choose to be so harsh? The student that I have in mind, who failed several classes, has good relationships with her mentors and peers. She works hard but is not as quick as the rest of the class to absorb the massive amount of information presented to us. I would assume that your personality is not like hers. You sound like a pretty nice guy and all but was there something in your personality that conflicted with the school in terms of faculty and peers? Did they not like you and would have preferred not to put the extra effort to work with you? This is more of a behavior/personality rather than an academic issue.
Your willingness to take responsibilities for this mess is a good sign. The committee saw that as hope for you to grow and behave professionally. If you can adapt to the environment and behavior that's expected of you in this professional school, you will make it through MS2-4 with no problem. Congrats again! I'm happy to hear that all that time and energy to go through MS-1 was not wasted.
Forgive me for the assumptions that are inherent in the following statements I'm going to make.
Most medschool are very forgiving. I know people that have failed several exams yet my med school has done everything within its power to help carry the student through. Why then, with you, they choose to be so harsh? The student that I have in mind, who failed several classes, has good relationships with her mentors and peers. She works hard but is not as quick as the rest of the class to absorb the massive amount of information presented to us. I would assume that your personality is not like hers. You sound like a pretty nice guy and all but was there something in your personality that conflicted with the school in terms of faculty and peers? Did they not like you and would have preferred not to put the extra effort to work with you? This is more of a behavior/personality rather than an academic issue.
Your willingness to take responsibilities for this mess is a good sign. The committee saw that as hope for you to grow and behave professionally. If you can adapt to the environment and behavior that's expected of you in this professional school, you will make it through MS2-4 with no problem. Congrats again! I'm happy to hear that all that time and energy to go through MS-1 was not wasted.
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I think he made the promise to them.Originally posted by Doc Ivy
Yikes, they made you promise to be in the top 10% ? That's pretty steep. You better hit the books hard
It is not wise to make difficult and unnecessary promises. It only sets parameters for you to fail. Thus if you score above the mean, very respectable, but below the 10%, you still fail. Remember you 'barley' passed your MS-1 courses.
If they made you promise to be top 10% of the class, that's a very unreasonable and sadistic demand IMO.
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well, congratulations on staying in. I had voted against expulsion for whatever thats worth (nothing!). However, I think the above is a little odd.
I mean, if it were really just that easy, why wouldn't we all do it? Aim to excel but don't set yourself impossible standards or the journey will be much harder and less pleasant.
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I hope you learned something and appreciate the severity of your situation. I also hope you were sincere in your apologies and your promises and didn't just say things for the sake of saving your career. Going from barely passing to top 10% doesn't seem very realistic, but I hope you are able to live up to it and that you school doesn't hold you to that promise if you miss the mark. Let us know what happens next year.
Why did you delete the other threads?
Why did you delete the other threads?
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Great ambition but be realistic! Why did you include the "top 10%" clause voluntarily? Could you have done that even if you were not doing research initially? Congrats that you are studying, but the summer is almost over! Good luck in whatever you do. I do not want to bash you but you have a HARD road ahead of you. Best of luck!!! Glad you are still going to get the MD.
By the way, which med school did you say this was?
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This thread is getting less and less believable. But hey, why not play along a little bit more?
What you have done is set up what will probably be an impossible goal for yourself. Nothing like pressure to make one perform, I suppose. I mean, have you thought about all those people you will be competing with who actually studied during the first year?
The whole graduating in the top 10% thing is confusing. They are putting you on probation for three more years? So if you do well enough to stay on track for years 2 and 3 but then screw up somehow in year 4 they are going to kick you out and not let you graduate?
Luckily if you DO end up getting kicked out at the end, you'll probably win when you sue the school.
Good luck. Really. I think you are going to need it.
What you have done is set up what will probably be an impossible goal for yourself. Nothing like pressure to make one perform, I suppose. I mean, have you thought about all those people you will be competing with who actually studied during the first year?
The whole graduating in the top 10% thing is confusing. They are putting you on probation for three more years? So if you do well enough to stay on track for years 2 and 3 but then screw up somehow in year 4 they are going to kick you out and not let you graduate?
Luckily if you DO end up getting kicked out at the end, you'll probably win when you sue the school.
Good luck. Really. I think you are going to need it.
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I am convinced that you made up the whole story. There is no way you could do 40 hours research a week. I have done research in my first year and 10 hours a week was the maximun amount of time permitted by my school/or any other school I guess.
If you indeed had worked such long hours in research, you should hire a lawyer and sue your research advisor. Of course, you could have signed a secret "agreement" with him to promise that your would volunteer 40 hours per week.
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Regardless of whether your story is fact or fiction (i'm inclined to believe the latter) congratulations and good luck.
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Top 5 in? Are you telling the truth? By the way, why are you on an international forum telling these embarrassing details to complete strangers. You "won" your battle against the school; you had better start studying and stop wasting time on SDN. What was the research, by the way?
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40 hours per week in the lab... So let's be conservative and say you had 20 hours of lecture and lab per week. Those are 12 hour work-days. When did you ever study, exercise, spend time with your family and friends, or go out and have fun? Or did you just never go to class at all? You said earlier that you barely passed your classes. Did you learn anything about medicine at all last year?
And now you think you can just flip a switch in your brain, redirect your misguided energy, and make better grades than 90% of the other people in your class. That's great ambition, but the reality of it is that Year 2 is even more difficult that Year 1--the same Year 1 that you barely passed. Plus, you're starting off with a knowledge base that is significantly weaker than most of your class.
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i honestly believe the situation for your expulsion isn't your academic performance. When you missed those ethics class, why did none of your classmates tell you there was an assignment dude? It's hard to believe that a top 5 school does not encourage small group learning.
IMO, you actions are illogical. I think many agree with me. You are like John:
John: Hey Dave want to go watch a movie?
Dave: Sure, meet at my place.
John: Okay if I sprint to my car and drive at its top speed, I can get to your place in 10 minutes. If I don't make it in ten minutes, I'll chop off my legs.
Dave: Alright, i'll go get the chainsaw gassed up.
What did the committee want from you? A super star student or one that can work well with the faculty and the student body in making the school an enjoyable place for growth?
IMO, you actions are illogical. I think many agree with me. You are like John:
John: Hey Dave want to go watch a movie?
Dave: Sure, meet at my place.
John: Okay if I sprint to my car and drive at its top speed, I can get to your place in 10 minutes. If I don't make it in ten minutes, I'll chop off my legs.
Dave: Alright, i'll go get the chainsaw gassed up.
What did the committee want from you? A super star student or one that can work well with the faculty and the student body in making the school an enjoyable place for growth?
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Here's a modified version of what I was going to post in the poll thread until you deleted it:
I voted to expel you.
By becoming a physician you are to have the responsibility to care for hundreds of people's lives. So far you have shown that you cannot even care for your own. Each year, tens of thousands of applicants vie for a limited number of positons in medical school classes. The admissions committee has to weed through and find those 90-150 students that they feel will become excellent physicians. You made it; you were chosen out of thousands of others. They believed in you and thought you had what it takes to carry that responsibility for the rest of your life. However, you showed that you did have the responsibility to care for your own education.
You're not the victim here. You've marginally passed your classes for the whole year. You took the research job during the school year and you cut class. You have taken for granted the education you are so fortunate to have access to. And now you're looking for options on what to do because you're expelled. These are options you should never have even had to consider.
From what I've observed, I feel that you are not quite ready for this path you've chosen.
Honestly you sound like two different people.
You came to SDN to describe your story and you got good, sound advice from various individuals.
Then, you posted an actual poll to see if SDNers would let you stay or leave.
Then you delete both of those threads and return to say you've completely turned yourself around and are a whole new person, who will go from the bottom 16% to the top 10% at a "top 5" medical school.
Good luck.
I voted to expel you.
By becoming a physician you are to have the responsibility to care for hundreds of people's lives. So far you have shown that you cannot even care for your own. Each year, tens of thousands of applicants vie for a limited number of positons in medical school classes. The admissions committee has to weed through and find those 90-150 students that they feel will become excellent physicians. You made it; you were chosen out of thousands of others. They believed in you and thought you had what it takes to carry that responsibility for the rest of your life. However, you showed that you did have the responsibility to care for your own education.
You're not the victim here. You've marginally passed your classes for the whole year. You took the research job during the school year and you cut class. You have taken for granted the education you are so fortunate to have access to. And now you're looking for options on what to do because you're expelled. These are options you should never have even had to consider.
From what I've observed, I feel that you are not quite ready for this path you've chosen.
Honestly you sound like two different people.
You came to SDN to describe your story and you got good, sound advice from various individuals.
Then, you posted an actual poll to see if SDNers would let you stay or leave.
Then you delete both of those threads and return to say you've completely turned yourself around and are a whole new person, who will go from the bottom 16% to the top 10% at a "top 5" medical school.
Good luck.
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Why so harsh kutastha?
Personally, I think that devildoc is telling the truth. To his (her) credit (s)he wanted to get some perspective on the situation.Hence they posted the dilemma on SDN, isn't that what a message board is for? Deleting the post makes sense to me. Those that had read the original thread would be familar with the case, and would respond to the new thread. Keeping the original post and poll wasn't necessary.
As for coming back a "whole new person", I don't think that is the case. It sounds like the OP is contrite, and rather than spew empty apologies, wanted to put their money where their mouth is and promise some objective results. True top 10% might be an untenable goal, maybe top 25% might have been more realistic, but hey let me quote devildoc himself:
It's quite clear to me, at least, that the OP is NOT playing the victim and has done some growing up in the past short while.
Congrats, and good luck
Personally, I think that devildoc is telling the truth. To his (her) credit (s)he wanted to get some perspective on the situation.Hence they posted the dilemma on SDN, isn't that what a message board is for? Deleting the post makes sense to me. Those that had read the original thread would be familar with the case, and would respond to the new thread. Keeping the original post and poll wasn't necessary.
As for coming back a "whole new person", I don't think that is the case. It sounds like the OP is contrite, and rather than spew empty apologies, wanted to put their money where their mouth is and promise some objective results. True top 10% might be an untenable goal, maybe top 25% might have been more realistic, but hey let me quote devildoc himself:
It's quite clear to me, at least, that the OP is NOT playing the victim and has done some growing up in the past short while.
Congrats, and good luck
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Some of you judgmental fools are hilarious.
Look this guy screwed up big time no doubt. The committee apparently voted 10-2 to keep him, which sounds like a major concensus. Obviously the committee knows more about this guy than anybody else on this forum.
kutasha, I GUARANTEE YOU if I digged up into your med school class at UVM, I could find a few people who displayed poor professional judgment/ethics during the school year. Using your threshold, I guess you think all of them should be expelled?
Medical doctors are no more "moral" or "professional" than any other profession. There's a story running in the press right now about some fool doctor in Hawaii that already had his license revoked in Oklahoma and Texas who used a freakin screwdriver for some kind of back surgery!
What about the doctor at Harvard (MGH) who walked away from surgery to go to the bank? Did he get his license revoked? Hell no, there was absolutely ZERO disciplinary action against him.
The reason I bring this up is that some people are under the mistaken assumption that medicine never has or never will tolerate any ethical/professional screwups. Obviously thats not the case.
Some of you need to get off your high horse. Just because you got accepted to med school DOES NOT MAKE YOU MORALLY/ETHICALLY superior as a result.
Look this guy screwed up big time no doubt. The committee apparently voted 10-2 to keep him, which sounds like a major concensus. Obviously the committee knows more about this guy than anybody else on this forum.
kutasha, I GUARANTEE YOU if I digged up into your med school class at UVM, I could find a few people who displayed poor professional judgment/ethics during the school year. Using your threshold, I guess you think all of them should be expelled?
Medical doctors are no more "moral" or "professional" than any other profession. There's a story running in the press right now about some fool doctor in Hawaii that already had his license revoked in Oklahoma and Texas who used a freakin screwdriver for some kind of back surgery!
What about the doctor at Harvard (MGH) who walked away from surgery to go to the bank? Did he get his license revoked? Hell no, there was absolutely ZERO disciplinary action against him.
The reason I bring this up is that some people are under the mistaken assumption that medicine never has or never will tolerate any ethical/professional screwups. Obviously thats not the case.
Some of you need to get off your high horse. Just because you got accepted to med school DOES NOT MAKE YOU MORALLY/ETHICALLY superior as a result.
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Your best thinking got you into this mess.
Didn't anyone tell you last year you shouldn't be setting unrealistic goals such as trying to complete MS1 and work in a lab 40 hours a week? Apparently you thrive on trying to accomplish what others say can't be done. That's a very dangerous way to motivate yourself!
Good luck over the coming year. I'm not sure if you have really learned anything - you seemed to have replaced one unrealistic goal with another. If this was the only way for you to stay in med school, I understand you had no choice but to accept the challenge. However, it sounds like it was your idea and you seem way too excited to prove that you can do what no other has done before.
Didn't anyone tell you last year you shouldn't be setting unrealistic goals such as trying to complete MS1 and work in a lab 40 hours a week? Apparently you thrive on trying to accomplish what others say can't be done. That's a very dangerous way to motivate yourself!
Good luck over the coming year. I'm not sure if you have really learned anything - you seemed to have replaced one unrealistic goal with another. If this was the only way for you to stay in med school, I understand you had no choice but to accept the challenge. However, it sounds like it was your idea and you seem way too excited to prove that you can do what no other has done before.
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This not a black and white issue, nor a discusson of moral superiority (though the irony in the comment "Some of you judgemental fools" makes me laugh). The way this person presented his/her case made it sound like this wasn't some isolated incident but an entire year of problems. You bet your ass you could look through my class and find people that made some poor judgements, and the ones that did so for the whole year won't be back.
It's like getting a brand new Jaguar for your birthday, putting 50,000 miles on it in a year, driving it into the ground and never changing the oil. Then you wonder what went wrong when the mechanic tells you you need a new engine. Have you learned your lesson? Perhaps, but what got you into the mess to begin with?
Mainly I'm just throwing out a devil's advocate argument. Trust me, I'm glad devildoc gets another chance. I just hope it's not one of many.
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Some of you really are being asses about this. It's not like he decided to go and jack off 40 hours a week-- he was working in a lab full-time doing a research project. And, seriously, it's not like the student progress committee is going to come back in 2 years and say, "Oh you've made it into the top 25% of your class, but you didn't meet your pledge to be in the top 10%, so we're kicking you out anyway."
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Funny that I have done tissue enginnering research for three years. It is exciting stuff but I can not image a medical student is so addicted that he could volunteer 40 hours. Most of graduate students I met did not spend this long in the lab. The majority of research projects do not work and sometime it is quite boring (yes, more boring/depressing than Ethics classes when the experiments fail). Maybe you should pursue a Ph.D instead.
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This whole thing is becoming like a car wreck on the side of the freeway that you can't look away from.
Whatever happens, I hope the OP matures and attains better judgement in the next 3 years for the sake of his/her patients.
FYI: Top 5 US medical schools by research
Harvard
Hopkins
Washington-St. Louis
Duke
U Penn
Whatever happens, I hope the OP matures and attains better judgement in the next 3 years for the sake of his/her patients.
FYI: Top 5 US medical schools by research
Harvard
Hopkins
Washington-St. Louis
Duke
U Penn
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Well, it sure as hell isn't Duke with their 1 year basic science curriculum. My money is on U Penn or Wash U. Good luck going from the bottom 10% to the top 10% at these kinds of schools.
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I can't figure out whether the OP is overly optimistic, delusional, or just full of ****.
To go from the bottom 10% to the top 10% of the graduating class is highly improbable, and clearly borders on the impossible. It might be possible to score in the top 10% of the class in the remaining years, but your negative performance the first year will make it highly unlikely to pull your overall average to the top 10%.
Consider someone their freshman year of college taking 18 semester hours of classes. If this hypothetical person made a 2.0 for 36 semester hours, and then a 4.0 for the remaining 3 years (108 hours), his/her cumulative GPA would only be a 3.5. That hardly puts you in the top 10% of your class.
If it's your goal, then I wish you all the luck in the world. Just don't become a gunner and try to make your fellow students fail, withhold information from them, etc. That's far worse than your original action of not showing up for your ethics class and turning papers in late.
To go from the bottom 10% to the top 10% of the graduating class is highly improbable, and clearly borders on the impossible. It might be possible to score in the top 10% of the class in the remaining years, but your negative performance the first year will make it highly unlikely to pull your overall average to the top 10%.
Consider someone their freshman year of college taking 18 semester hours of classes. If this hypothetical person made a 2.0 for 36 semester hours, and then a 4.0 for the remaining 3 years (108 hours), his/her cumulative GPA would only be a 3.5. That hardly puts you in the top 10% of your class.
If it's your goal, then I wish you all the luck in the world. Just don't become a gunner and try to make your fellow students fail, withhold information from them, etc. That's far worse than your original action of not showing up for your ethics class and turning papers in late.
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I think that if this story is true, they wouldn't kick you out if you didn't make the top 10%. They probably agreed to it b/c they figure if you are going to try that hard, then the outcome will be better than your first year. They probably thought, "Maybe this kid needs this kind of pressure in order to have his priorities straightened out." If they really are sticking to your 10% proposal, I'd think that they are anticipating your failure. It just doesn't really sit right with me.
Top 5 school? Well, the fact that you havn't done those physical exam skills in first year, the fact that you have a full summer available, and the fact that you aren't taking your boards until next summer eliminate atleast two of the five right off the bat. Duke is still in class finishing up their first year I believe. Penn starts on the wards in January and have done much of the clinical skills that you are studying for future courses. Harvard, Hopkins, and Wash U are left, right?
If it is true I wish you the best of luck. One thing I'll say though is this, clerkships grades are incredibly important and it takes a lot mroe than efficient studying to get high honors in them. So, in addition to excelling in your text-courses, I wish you the best of luck in figuring out all the necessary requirements to achieve great things for yourself in your clerkships.
Top 5 school? Well, the fact that you havn't done those physical exam skills in first year, the fact that you have a full summer available, and the fact that you aren't taking your boards until next summer eliminate atleast two of the five right off the bat. Duke is still in class finishing up their first year I believe. Penn starts on the wards in January and have done much of the clinical skills that you are studying for future courses. Harvard, Hopkins, and Wash U are left, right?
If it is true I wish you the best of luck. One thing I'll say though is this, clerkships grades are incredibly important and it takes a lot mroe than efficient studying to get high honors in them. So, in addition to excelling in your text-courses, I wish you the best of luck in figuring out all the necessary requirements to achieve great things for yourself in your clerkships.
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That's one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. For crying out loud, you should have passed up your spot and given it to somebody who wanted to be there.
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Like the person you were doing research for!? Didn't he/she ever think it was odd you were an MS1 and spending 40 hrs. a week in the lab?
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lets not drop this. This is entertaining. As a student doctor, I declare this person manic if it is truth. Who the hell thinks they can be at a top 5 school, do 40 hr/wk research and not study? Did they not notice that others seemed to be going to this thing called 'class' and learning about this subject called 'medicine?' Or did his thought process go something like "hmm, i'm in a top medical school, that reminds me that I need to learn about something... i forget what... ummm, oh forget it i'll just research my time away"
Equally hilarious is his promise to hang up a framed grade report in the committee office when he does achieve top 10% or whatever he promised, i didn't read too carefully. As if his academic work would the the pride & crowning achievement of Harvard Medical School. Tourguides of HMS would mention his name next to the greatest heart surgeons and nobel laureates for accomplish the academic turnaround of the 21st century.
Equally hilarious is his promise to hang up a framed grade report in the committee office when he does achieve top 10% or whatever he promised, i didn't read too carefully. As if his academic work would the the pride & crowning achievement of Harvard Medical School. Tourguides of HMS would mention his name next to the greatest heart surgeons and nobel laureates for accomplish the academic turnaround of the 21st century.
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As a minority woman, I can relate to having said this to myself more than a few times in my life. I think anyone that can work 40 hours/wk and still PASS the first year must be pretty dam smart. Good luck making top 10%!!!
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I agree 100% with unregistered that this sounds like mania. I kept thinking that as I read through from the original post to the end. "I am going to change the bounds on what is possible" in particular sounds like a grandiose delusion to me. And if he was working 40 hrs/week while attending med school and thought that would work, it was either an abundance of energy with decreased need for sleep or extremely poor judgment (or both).
So, do you have racing thoughts/flight of ideas? Impulsive and dangerous behavior? Pressured speech? I guess excessive posts to SDN does not in itself qualify for hypergraphia or some of the other people here would be in serious trouble.
(Before you flame me, I am not actually suggesting that we can diagnose bipolar from what someone posts on a message forum - we all know that requires a detailed MSE.)
bpkurtz
So, do you have racing thoughts/flight of ideas? Impulsive and dangerous behavior? Pressured speech? I guess excessive posts to SDN does not in itself qualify for hypergraphia or some of the other people here would be in serious trouble.
(Before you flame me, I am not actually suggesting that we can diagnose bipolar from what someone posts on a message forum - we all know that requires a detailed MSE.)
bpkurtz
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Why go to medical school to do research??? That's what regular grad school is for!
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ok, i've hopped on this thread way late, and i'm reading all this and frankly, i'm confused. why would they expell you for barely passing your classes? you did pass them, yes? and even if you just passed by a point or two, why wasn't remediation an option? there are a lot of students every year at every school that have to remediate a class or two in the summer, or remediate the entire year the next year. i don't understand why a school would expell you for passing, albeit barely, your classes. if i was the committee, i'd make you redo your entire year over. you obviously haven't learned anything from that year-- therefore, you will lack the base you need for your second year material, and your board scores will most likely be compromised, bringing down the school's stats (which they try to preserve at all costs). im sorry, but none of this makes any sense at all. maybe i missed something because i didn't see the early threads that you deleted (which is weird in itself) . . .
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