Med Students aren't really like this, are they?

[kreno]

Here is an email I received recently from someone I know who is currently at a top 10 med school (i'm not listing the med school for anonimity reasons). Is this really true? I personally know i'll *NEVER* end up like this... for i've had more hospital experience than this guy ever had before he got into med school - so i'd like to think i know what i'm getting myself into more than him. nonetheless, what he says, and how he says is disturbing... will my PEERS really be like this? I know i'll never be like this, but how shameful it would be if my colleagues had these attitudes.


About Residency -
I wouldn't wish that miserable life on my worst enemies. I hate
medicine and everything about it. Every resident I've met has been the most
hateful and cynical beaten-down dog. Everyone I know chooses residency
based on the quality of life and the amount of money they will make.
You'd never believe just how popular Radiology is. Plus, it doesn't
help if every resident-friend that I have begs me to stay away and
actually do something useful with my degree, like make money and have time for
a family. So there is a very strong possibility that I'll be joining
some biotech company somewhere in Europe for a substantial sum of money.
If not - then Plastic surgery it is... only so I would not have to
deal with these nasty, decomposing bags of **** called patients. ****ing
rectal surgeries don't smell as half as bad as these geriatric farts
who are all demented across the board and **** and pee on themselves every 30 minutes. This is what a typical patient looks like in a hospital.

you should hear my classmates go off on this topic. hahaha Here is a very bright
future that awaits medicine!

Peace.

---

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[surge]

Please tell me this is not from 'the school' that I think it is....


Either way, it's sad, but it happens a lot.
I'm not concerned, because I know I will never be that way. Of course, someone will now come and say - yeah, that's what this guy thought. That's fine, though.
I have my reasons, and, above all, I don't owe anybody an excuse. At least it will be easier for the passionate amongst us.

 

[kreno]

No, he doesn't go to where we'll be going. Thank god.

You have some good points surge. but again, it's not MYSELF that i'm concerned about, it's the institution of medicine and in particular my colleagues!

 

[Brewster]

I don't know anyone that cynical, in my class or among the residents I have met/worked with.

Sure, people have their moments. Some dislike a particular rotation (but are not nearly as bitter as your friend) but love others. Some act sort of like that post-call, but are back to normal after a full night's rest.

I must admit that I know people who I am convinced picked certain specialties for lifestyle/paycheck reasons. However, most people I know found a specialty they were really excited about and went for it (you can tell when someone is really psyched for what they are doing).

The vast majority of the residents I worked with were tired and overworked at times but loved being doctors and loved teaching me what they knew. They were very encouraging regarding my medical education and my choice of specialty.

 

[anamarylee]

As in every professional field, there are people who hate their lives/jobs and others that love them. If you can't deal with pain and suffering, are getting into medicine for the money, lifestyle, respect, etc you are in for a very rude awakening. Medicine should not be about money, eventhough at times it comes down to the bottom line. If you know in your heart that medicine is for you, and that you truly want to make some sacrifices to help others, then you are in the right position.

I could never go into a field like radiology. They might make tons of money, but how much of a difference in a patient's life can they make?

Don't let a burned out change your outlook on this noble profession.

Ana Marylee =)

 

[Iron Horse]

The answer is yes, you will have some peers and superiors who share the attitudes expressed in that statement. The question is how many. While I am far from naive, it has disappointed me on many occasions to come across students and health care providers (i.e. MDs, PAs, RNs, etc.) who openly express such sentiments, both in words and actions. With regard to medical students, this is precisely why medical schools need to be more vigilant during the application process. There are more than enough prospective medical students who can handle the work -- the more important question, and much more challenging is, which students have the personal attributes that will make them conscientious physicians and appropriate leaders of the health care team. It's not hyperbole to say that our responsibilities and the trust given to us by the public, as physicians and even as students, is sacred. People rarely change fundamentally, so schools really need to fine tune the selection process, in my opinion. That said, stay positive, remain true to your character and lead by example.

 

[painres]

I could never go into a field like radiology. They might make tons of money, but how much of a difference in a patient's life can they make?

Ana Marylee =) [/B]

Thats a very insulting thing to say to radiologists, who make a HUGE difference in peoples lives every day. Do this, everytime when youre being scutted as a third year and the residents say call the radiologist to get results for the CXR or CT, MRI or whatever which will totally dictate how you care for the pt, ask yourself if the radiologist made a difference in those patients lives. Dont confuse lack of pt. contact with not making a difference.

 

[surge]

Yes, I definitely see the points.
You are right, all of us are bound to come accross someone like that sooner or later. All we can do is to make sure we don't become one of them.

As much as I don't like radiology as a potential career, I cannot overemphasize how much difference radiologists make.

Recently I was volunteering at the ER when a guy came in (his wife drove him) who fell off a horse. He was complaining of neck and shoulder pain, so the ER doc ordered the x-rays. He looked at the x-rays and couldn't see anything (I have a habit of looking with the doc, and seriously, there was nothing there). So he goes to discharge the patient. But this guy is complaining of even more pain, so the doc sends him to get a CT.
Twenty minutes later the radiologist call him up with the diagnosis: UNSTABLE fracture through the body of C7. Had this guy sneezed, he would be a quadriplegic now.

Thank god there are people that like radiology, because somebody HAS to do it.

 

[kcrd]

Brewster said: "I must admit that I know people who I am convinced picked certain specialties for lifestyle/paycheck reasons."

I agree that there are some very ugly things in kreno's copied email, but why sneer at the thought of going into a 'lifestyle' field, and seeking a career with some balance where you can have a family, and *time* to actually see them? You can be a good doctor and not spend all of your waking hours at the clinic or in the operating room. In fact, you will probably be a better doctor if you realize that your life needs balance.

 

[Brewster]

I should clarify...
What I meant was that I know people who are going into certain fields for only lifestyle/paycheck without true interest in the field. I have no problem with 'lifestyle' fields and no problem with people going into them if they have true interest in the field beyond the time off and the paycheck. I did not mean to sneer...it was merely an observation. Sorry if I offended.

I agree...they will make great doctors. Each person has to decide what field is right for them. I feel that your interest in the field should play some role in the decision.

 

[kcrd]

I didn't mean to jump on you, Brewster. You didn't offend me, I just wanted to voice my opinion that it is not shameful to pick fields like rads, derm, etc, where you can have a life.

 

[GAdasooka]

Starting from the first thread...

It's my belief that we're lucky that there ARE other fields for people to go into when they discover they dislike medicine a little too late in the game.

The way I see it, you have one shot at living. One life. I've a firm believer in "carpe diem." In life we have to decide our role in the world- we have to decide what we're going to do with that one shot. What' most important to you? Practicing medicine is what I have decided I want to do with that one shot. I love medicine, but what's more- I love helping people. It's a little corny and cliched, but that's the most of it. I understand that if I were looking for money, an easy life, and care-free days, there are other places to make money with less schooling, fewer work hours, and a lighter stress load. However, this is irrelevant to me. My interests lie elsewhere. I simply want to take care of people to the best of my ability. This is more important to me. And it's not that I'm trying to be a martyr who puts everyone else first or anything- it's simply that I feel best about myself when I know that I've made someone else's day. Whether it's passing along a smile or easing someone's mind about lowering their cholesterol, I'm happier if I have affected someone else's life in a way that causes that person to experience less stress and fewer worries. Yes, there are easier means of doing this- I could teach, nurse, be a social worker. However, practicing medicine is what I've discovered I could do well, and even more importantly, practicing medicine is my best route for touching others' lives in the most significant way that I am capable of. We're each unique in how we integrate our lives into the world and the role we play in affecting the universe. Small or large- be Bill Gates, be the doctor, be the teacher, be the man who builds people homes. All roles are important. So we each have to ask ourselves, "what's important to me?"

However, if there's someone out there who wants money, no smells, easy gain, etc.- then seek elsewhere. It's not a BAD thing that people get into practicing medicine and change their mind. Hey- people make mistakes. However, an error only becomes a mistake when you refuse to fix it. So if you don't enjoy medicine, choose elsewhere.

The best physicians are the physicians who care. It doesn' t matter what field a person chooses- be it radiology, plastic surgery, cardiologist, or family practice physician. Those who care are those make a difference. Whether the person is a physician in the ER or a volunteer changing bedpans- those who care are those who make a difference. Retaining our humanism and compassion for the patients we care for is not only important to being a good doctor, it's mandatory.

So, what's the moral of this tirade?

Care! Love what you do- and never forget WHY you're doing it. And if you discover you're doing it for the wrong reasons... you might think career change.

 

[Fenrezz]

Boy that email really disturbs me. I can't imagine that person went to medical school thinking that way, but he was turned into that by his experiences. Makes ya wonder if similar experiences can make someone else that belligerently cynical. Kind of reminds me of "House of God", where interns start out wide-eyed, and end up something resembling the individual in that email.

It's easy to say "it won't happen to me" and I'm sure it won't happen to most people, but it is something to think about. I tell you what, I won't forget that email anytime soon. I'm glad I saw it, as I can be more prepared against a perpetual burnout during my rotations/residency.

 

[fang]

I wonder if Kreno's aquaintance ever had a job outside of medicine. Every job has its crappy side-- I'd like to see what he has to say about that biotech company in Europe after a year. (The ****ing CEO can't raise any more money so now we're all getting paid like **** and I might get laid off and I do the same **** thing every day and there's callouses on my fingers from typing so **** much...)

 

[Zoobaby]

Originally posted by fang
I wonder if Kreno's aquaintance ever had a job outside of medicine. Every job has its crappy side-- I'd like to see what he has to say about that biotech company in Europe after a year. (The ****ing CEO can't raise any more money so now we're all getting paid like **** and I might get laid off and I do the same **** thing every day and there's callouses on my fingers from typing so **** much...)

excellent point. some people are never happy. some people don't even WANT to be happy. sucks to be them

 

[kreno]

Yeah, this guy blows... he just lectured me in another email how I "made a big mistake" choosing the school I did over another school I was accepted at which was ranked by USnews two spots higher! So, after those two things coming to light.. this guy is an IDIOT.

It still scares me to know he's at a top 10 med school! my god... aren't those adcoms screeeeeeening for personality flaws?

kreno

 

[painres]

Originally posted by kreno


It still scares me to know he's at a top 10 med school! my god... aren't those adcoms screeeeeeening for personality flaws?

kreno [/B]

Everyone has personality flaws, thats what makes us individuals. If ADCOMS screened for these then they couldnt let anyone in. They are what separates us from each other, and what as a general rule defines us. I have them, you have them, thats the way it goes. Medicine tends to build on them, and exaggerate them.

 

[kreno]

Well, yeah everyone has personality flaws... but, it seems to me someone who says things like" ... Plastic surgery it is... only so I would not have to deal with these nasty, decomposing bags of **** called patients..."

But, I critisize the system without offering any suggestions on how to correct it (maybe longer interviews?).... but it's just 'cuz this guy being in med school scares me. I know it's not a perfect world, and people slip through, but still...

kreno

 

[Rads Resident]

Originally posted by anamarylee
I could never go into a field like radiology. They might make tons of money, but how much of a difference in a patient's life can they make?
Ana Marylee =)

Try to practice medicine without medical imaging and you'll see.

You obviously don't yet know much about the practice of medicine. That's fine, you will learn.

Interestingly, it's the doctors who don't understand radiology who overuse and abuse it the most and in the process fail to ever acquire the clinical skills that physicians once had.

 

[Brewster]

I could never go into a field like radiology either. However, a good radiologist is invaluable for quality patient care.

I could also never go into pathology. However, like a good radiologist, a good pathologist is also invaluable for quality patient care.

Just because you (or I) cannot see ourselves doing something does not mean that we don't need good, bright physicians in these fields.

 

[painres]

Originally posted by kreno
Well, yeah everyone has personality flaws... but, it seems to me someone who says things like" ... Plastic surgery it is... only so I would not have to deal with these nasty, decomposing bags of **** called patients..."

But, I critisize the system without offering any suggestions on how to correct it (maybe longer interviews?).... but it's just 'cuz this guy being in med school scares me. I know it's not a perfect world, and people slip through, but still...

kreno

I agree with you that this guy went a little far with the geriatric comments. Hes got some issues there for sure. I have a lot of respect for the geriatric population, the situation can be quite sad, to say ther are decomposing bags of whatever is beyond me. Whoever said that will be in their shoes someday, maybe someone can say that to him then....

 

[kissit]

Originally posted by MD'05
Now it's like I have this big ole sign on my back that says "I enjoy poop, please fulfill my needs".

Thank you.

 

[Docgeorge]

I'm glad that the person who wrote that oridginal e-mail is considering a career in bio tech. I would hate to have him as my collegue or attending. Cases like this make me a big believer in have mandatory clinical experices like those required by PA and PT programs. just my $.02

 

[irlandesa]

Originally posted by Docgeorge
I'm glad that the person who wrote that oridginal e-mail is considering a career in bio tech. I would hate to have him as my collegue or attending. Cases like this make me a big believer in have mandatory clinical experices like those required by PA and PT programs. just my $.02

Amen! actually a lot of med schools are instituting early clinical experiences, my school does a fantastic job where we spend one day a week during 2nd semester, 2nd year seeing patients. I'm currently at Lemuel Shattuck Hospital in Boston, which is state-run and the patient population consists mostly of people with long histories of drug and alcohol abuse, HIV, TB infection, and incarceration. It is quite an experience to say the least, and even if you think you are tough and super-tolerant, I can assure you that you will get grossed out by poop and bad hygeine at times, at least initially. Some of it really tests your idealism and interests in patient care at times, and really will surprise you. but in spite of being exposed to the not-so-pretty aspects of medicine, Internal Medicine and ER were by far the most popular residency choices at my school. So I think the majority of people do want to interact with patients, even if there are some embittered souls in med school.

 

[care bear]

i hate p**p as much as anyone. . .but can you imagine how much it sucks to not be able to flush away your own p**p, but know that someone else is having the discomfort of dealing with it? i can't imagine a more humiliating and helpless feeling. you must get pretty tired of being 'apologetic' once in a while, as a patient. . .

 

[kreno]

good point care bear... something i'll try to always remember. these are real people we're talking about, not just objects or "peices of ****" l

 

[secretwave101]

I recently went to a panel discussion about a highly charged political topic (women in medicine). One of the panel participants said something about being lucky she had a daughter so she didn't need an abortion to end her preg. if it had been a boy.

Lots of us kinda freaked out at that comment, and many people were offended.

But it occurred to me that our society is getting less and less tolerant about the way people say stuff. Who knows what the lady really meant? Maybe she was nervous and was just trying to say she had really wanted the daughter she ended up with. Maybe she was just trying to be funny and failing badly. No one followed up with her to ask what the heck she meant. It was like everyone was just WAITING to find a comment to get offended by.

Same with the original post. The fact is that geriatrics REALLY isn't for everyone. Whether people say it politely or not, there are a good number of people who basically hate geriatrics (same for all specialties). There isn't anything wrong with this - it's important to define what you don't want to do. But if they say "I hate old people" to express that they hate geriatrics - they sound evil.

Before using someone's quote to wax eloquent about our medical idealisms, I think it would be better to see what this person actually meant. Chances are, there's a more politically palatable explanation of his/her views awaiting some genuine follow-up questions.

 

[Russel]

no, absolutely not.
_______________
sing of songs, medicine is medicine.

 

[Celiac Plexus]

For those of you just entering the med school pipeline... DON'T WORRY! There are a lot of different fields in medicine, not all of which require you to have a lot of patient contact. Pathology, radiology, medical genetics, research, biotech... It's a vast medscape of options. Med school will be exciting and a lot fo fun!

About the copied e-mail... What can yous say? One of the best things about being a doctor is taking care of patients in their most needy, vulnerable, and desperate states. It's one of the things that gives the field nobility. I thank God that I will be in a position to help people, and be a strong caretaker when they need me the most. If you are sick and need my help, I will be there rain or shine, clean or dirty, soiled or unsoiled. If you are my patient I am there to serve you as if you were a member of my immediate family.

I have NEVER thought of patients in such a horrible way. It would just never occur to me to think of a patient like that. No, I don't enjoy smelling rancid stool, or infected wounds. But that's part of being a doctor! You are going to minister to the sick and dying. Not all of your patients will be soccer moms from the suburbs.

That someone would have this kind of outlook suggests to me that there is an absence of maturity and professionalism. However I do not think that this outlook is shared by many people. I have NEVER heard a single classmate or resident at my university utter any words even remotely like the ones in that copied e-mail. And if I did hear those kind of remarks from someone, I would lose respect for them. I really think that that person has other issues unrelated to medicine.

Peace and good luck. It's an AWESOME FIELD BABY!!!!!!!!

 

[hotbovie1]

the individual who sent the original poster that email probably wouldn't be happy in any field. S/he expresses sentiments that I find appaling for one entering the field of medicine and may very well have done it for the wrong reasons. I have never encountered anyone at my school who expressed the same feelings. I have encountered those who are unhappy with the job, but they still manage to recongize that pts deserve a modicum of respect (a little harder to do with the gangsters who have been involved in drive by shootings, but still. they get called "sir")

Amazing that the individual who wrote that is at a "top 10" school. Shows you the value of those ratings (which are usually based on how much research money is awarded)

Personally, I believe I am about to start the best job in the world! I am a soon to be surgery intern, and I can't wait to be able to just start going about the business of being a surgeon (though it will be in name only for quite some time). Yes, there are some down sides, but all jobs have that. It doen't mean I don't love the field, though.

The best way to handle people like those who wrote that email is to ignore them.

 

[Scooby Doo]

You people are in for a rude awakening when you finally do get into the profession. Many of your classmates are going to be cynical and most of them will feel underpaid/respected and overworked/tired/etc/etc.

The truth is, I want a family. I think probably most of you want a family. Hence, I'm gonna try to choose a profession that will be compatable with that. Does that make me a bad person? I sure as hell hope not!

Residency isn't exactly a cake-walk...If you do it, you have to be dedicated and understand it's either for the long run or really really like what you are doing.

From all aspects of my experience so far, I've heard more and more doctors tell me to stay away. Actually, it was worse at schools that I interviewed at or places that I volunteered back in undergrad. I haven't really heard many (if any at all) negative comments since being at med school.

The dude went on a rant...the last part he sounds like an idiot...but hey, welcome to how many of your coworkers are going to sound like. Some people keep sanity by acting this way..others keep sanity by putting on a front of being angelic. Hey..whatever works for you...You're gonna deal with people like this and people who are nicer than ..... everyday.

 

[surge]

Originally posted by secretwave101
I recently went to a panel discussion about a highly charged political topic (women in medicine). One of the panel participants said something about being lucky she had a daughter so she didn't need an abortion to end her preg. if it had been a boy.

Although not related to the original topic....

I would argue she said it precisely for the shock value of it, to make her point about how ridiculously discriminatory the society is towards women (medicine in particular), because as you know, in many countries (e.g. China et al.) it is perfectly acceptable to do the same if it's a girl.

 

[secretwave101]

That you would argue what she meant is exactly my point...WHO KNOWS what the lady meant? Your thesis is pretty good - it might be right, it might not.

There's more than one intrepretation to what she said even though it sounded pretty inflammatory. I think this litigious society needs to give people more room to say stupid things (or type them at SDN), and that we should withhold judgement on those things until we really know what that person meant.

 

[surge]

Originally posted by secretwave101
There's more than one intrepretation to what she said even though it sounded pretty inflammatory. I think this litigious society needs to give people more room to say stupid things (or type them at SDN), and that we should withhold judgement on those things until we really know what that person meant.

Couldn't agree with you more on that one.

 

[Tazmaniac]

In response to the original copy email about geriatric patients as sacks of ****:

At the risk of offending some, I have to agree with the same sentiment if not the viciousness. I don't enjoy older patients at all. Their smell gets me sometimes, and dementia is frustrating. I abhor dealing with chronic geriatric problems, and each patient over 60 I take care of makes me very, very afraid of growing old myself. Emphysema patients make me want to punch their face and yell at why they couldn't stop smoking. Chronic back pain frustrates me twice as much, and I'd like to just say, 'look, it's all in your head, so stop asking me for Demerol.'

Well, I am going into pediatrics, and am very content with the choice. I love children of all ages, playing with them, offering them piggyback rides, and generally acting immature and, er, child-like. I want to be the one to console the parents, and also the one who removes the child from his or her abusive parents (ideally also kick the crap out of the parents, you know, Matrix-style). Kid poop doesn't smell half as bad as old poop.

Though I agree that the e-mail was harsh, I've heard it before and I've probably uttered it as well. The cynical ones in med school (myself included) will find things to kvetch about, but in the end, people will find their ultimate occupation based on their preferences and no geriatric patients will have to deal with their surly attitudes once they do.


-Todd USC MSIII-->MSIV

 

[benzo]

I'd be careful about reading too much into the e-mail that you received. If I understand correctly, the people that the writer of the e-mail is refering to are in the middle of their residency, very likely sleep deprived because of it and are basically just venting frustrations.

I recently read a book called Intern Blues. I highly recomend this book to anyone that is intested in becoming a physician. The book follows a group of young physicians as they go through the first year of internship and the things that some of them say sound a lot like that e-mail.

Truth is that there are aspects of becoming a physician that are very difficult and unpleasant. In order to deal with those frustrations people need to vent from time to time. Let me put it this way. At one time I was an EMT and was friends with several other very competent EMT's and paramedics. After particularly graphic runs (disembowelments and the like) many of these guys would tell the most off color jokes and make comments that to the layperson would sound very crass, inapropriate, cynical and just plain insensitive. The thing was, on the run these guys were none of those things. When they had to be, they were the model of professionalism. They did the job and they did it well. But they are human beings just like us that had just witnessed something VERY disturbing. I think that it was necessary for some of these guys to vent and tell jokes and the like just so they could go out and do their jobs. It was like a defense mechanism that kept them from going nuts or something.

Thats what I see when I read that e-mail.

Then again, perhaps he's just a prick.

 

[kreno]

You have a *VERY* good point benzo. I guess when I was an EMT after CPR patients and really bad accidents and such, we made comments that, to the lay person, would have sounded sickening and totally outlandish.

Nonetheless, I thought that the email from this person was particularly cynical and negative given that he's NOT a resident, but rather just a 3rd year medical student (at the time, it was the middle of his third year when he wrote it).

Great ideas and thoughts on everyone's part though...

kreno

 

[drdoctor]

Medical school rankings are really useless. I agree with the poster who said that before. A good doctor is not the Harvard Med. grad, but any MD from whatever med. school who has the ability to apply his/her scientific knowledge and be comfortable w/ patients.

 

[Acro Yali]

I didn't read the whole thread, just the first few posts, but yeah, there are people like that in medical school. It is sad, very sad.

 

[truth617]

A good deal of the residents that I know are quite pleasant--often overworked and liking to joke about patients, but amusement about their situation helps them.

For what was the first ultra cynical med student that I read about, check out:
http://upalumni.org/medschool/