Residency App Help - Disciplinary Issue

[pennycilin]

Hello,
I am a rising 4th year DO student and I had an unfortunate incident occur at the beginning of third year. I had to take 10 days off of my 2nd core rotation due to an acute health problem (managed outpatient, not inpatient admission level of seriousness). I was in contact with my preceptor on that rotation and he understood what was going on. The problem is, I failed to keep my school informed. A classmate reported my extended absence to the school before I did, and I ended up in front of a disciplinary committee for not following the appropriate steps for reporting an absence and/or requesting a short term LOA.

To summarize the "punishment," I was put on a temporary academic/professionalism probation that will not be permanently noted in any of my records and is now gone, so I am back in good standing. But, I was also given a grade of Fail for that rotation and I must repeat it during 4th year. I have worked with my Dept of Clinical Affairs to schedule that make up to occur well before residency applications are due so that I'll have a passing grade to show, but the Fail grade will persist on the transcript even when the new grade is posted. (Side note: I could have appealed the decision within 5 days of receiving it, but chose not to. The committee hinted that they could be considering potentially dismissal from the program at the time of our meeting and I did not want to risk throwing any more gas on the fire. Thus, reversing this decision is unlikely/impossible at this point.)

Any general advice on what I should expect to be asked about this during residency interviews, how I should address it on the ERAS app, and how much impact this might have to my match chances? All advice welcome.

Thanks,
Penny

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[med2345]

If they don’t ask don’t tell.

You probably will get asked due to the fail. Just be honest as you are here and that’s it. No one could tell you how much it’ll effect anything if at all but honesty is the answer here.

 

[yougotquestions]

Hello,
I am a rising 4th year DO student and I had an unfortunate incident occur at the beginning of third year. I had to take 10 days off of my 2nd core rotation due to an acute health problem (managed outpatient, not inpatient admission level of seriousness). I was in contact with my preceptor on that rotation and he understood what was going on. The problem is, I failed to keep my school informed. A classmate reported my extended absence to the school before I did, and I ended up in front of a disciplinary committee for not following the appropriate steps for reporting an absence and/or requesting a short term LOA.

To summarize the "punishment," I was put on a temporary academic/professionalism probation that will not be permanently noted in any of my records and is now gone, so I am back in good standing. But, I was also given a grade of Fail for that rotation and I must repeat it during 4th year. I have worked with my Dept of Clinical Affairs to schedule that make up to occur well before residency applications are due so that I'll have a passing grade to show, but the Fail grade will persist on the transcript even when the new grade is posted. (Side note: I could have appealed the decision within 5 days of receiving it, but chose not to. The committee hinted that they could be considering potentially dismissal from the program at the time of our meeting and I did not want to risk throwing any more gas on the fire. Thus, reversing this decision is unlikely/impossible at this point.)

Any general advice on what I should expect to be asked about this during residency interviews, how I should address it on the ERAS app, and how much impact this might have to my match chances? All advice welcome.

Thanks,
Penny

If they ask about the fail, be honest about it. However, I will say I have talked with PDs and if you do have a fail, some of them have told me that they would like an explanation somewhere on the app. It can be a total of a few sentences just explaining the situation. Otherwise, they will kind of wonder why you failed the entire rotation.

My advice would be different if you only failed 1 aspect of the rotation (shelf vs clinical evaluation) which you would have to remediate and end up with a P* on your transcript which means passed with remediation. However, a fail - F - I would recommend a short explanation.

Also, your classmate is ****ed. Great camaraderie. I hope they get burned one day.

 

[FluffyCat1212]

Also, your classmate is ****ed. Great comradery. I hope they get burned one day.

Honestly, I came here just to say this. Your classmate is a jerk. Rules or not, what a crummy thing to do. Your absence wasn't hurting anybody, your attending was aware, and it honestly would have been easier for everyone had they just kept their mouth shut.

That being said, I agree with yougotquestions. I'm no expert in this process (also a rising M4), but I would be surprised if this was some sort of kiss of death on your app. Sure, you made a mistake...but let he who is without sin cast the first stone. It was an honest mistake. You learned from it, did what was necessary to make it right, and kept your nose clean for the rest of M3. If there's anything I've learned, it's that our mistakes don't define us, but our reactions to said mistakes do. I'm hopeful that residencies will see it in the same light. At the end of the day, it probably comes down to what you're applying to, though. If it's derm, then this probably isn't ideal. If it's something like IM or peds, you're probably fine.

Sorry, that's all. Good luck, Penny.

 

[Just D.O. it]

let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Unfortunately there are, in fact, plenty of graduating med students without sin (fails on their transcript) regardless of our subjective opinions on whether it was deserved, and there are more than enough of these students to completely fill the traditionally competitive residencies several times over.

our mistakes don't define us, but our reactions to said mistakes do. I'm hopeful that residencies will see it in the same light.

Based on my experience helping with the selection process in academic medicine, they will not. Again, I want to make clear that I am not personally ragging on OP or anyone with a red flag, but given the preponderance of applicants without any red flags, this pretty much reduces your chances of matching any non-competitive specialty to sub 10%.

Practicality would now suggest that you should focus your applications towards community IM/FM/peds/EM. Your chances for Psych/Neuro/PMR are also probably reasonable if you have an app focused towards one of those respective specialties. Everything else, its your life and your shot to shoot, but your chances of matching would be worryingly low in my opinion.

Agree with @yougotquestions, give a brief explanation somewhere in your app, and if it comes up during interviews be sure to explain it in a way that shows you learned from it (accountability/timeliness/however you want to spin it) and be careful not to come off as accusing or blaming any of the other parties involved.

 

[Dr. Anonymouss]

If your application is otherwise good (step score, clinical rotations, letters of rec) then you will still get interviews. It’s impossible to gauge how much it will impact you. Will there be some programs that will filter you based on this? Sure, but there are plenty more programs who will look past it if you look like an otherwise great applicant. If it looks like a blimp in your medical school journey they likely won’t be phased by it or will just ask what happened. If you get the interview though then you’re in the running, just remember that. They aren’t going to waste an interview on someone they don’t potentially want. As mentioned by all the others, just be honest if it comes up. Don’t try to be too obscure and don’t make excuses. Own up to it and state what you learned from it.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Hello,
I am a rising 4th year DO student and I had an unfortunate incident occur at the beginning of third year. I had to take 10 days off of my 2nd core rotation due to an acute health problem (managed outpatient, not inpatient admission level of seriousness). I was in contact with my preceptor on that rotation and he understood what was going on. The problem is, I failed to keep my school informed. A classmate reported my extended absence to the school before I did, and I ended up in front of a disciplinary committee for not following the appropriate steps for reporting an absence and/or requesting a short term LOA.

To summarize the "punishment," I was put on a temporary academic/professionalism probation that will not be permanently noted in any of my records and is now gone, so I am back in good standing. But, I was also given a grade of Fail for that rotation and I must repeat it during 4th year. I have worked with my Dept of Clinical Affairs to schedule that make up to occur well before residency applications are due so that I'll have a passing grade to show, but the Fail grade will persist on the transcript even when the new grade is posted. (Side note: I could have appealed the decision within 5 days of receiving it, but chose not to. The committee hinted that they could be considering potentially dismissal from the program at the time of our meeting and I did not want to risk throwing any more gas on the fire. Thus, reversing this decision is unlikely/impossible at this point.)

Any general advice on what I should expect to be asked about this during residency interviews, how I should address it on the ERAS app, and how much impact this might have to my match chances? All advice welcome.

Thanks,
Penny

If this is what happened, I wouldn't hold it against you if you were an applicant. Don't bring attention to it, but also, be this honest if asked

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

but given the preponderance of applicants without any red flags, this pretty much reduces your chances of matching any non-competitive specialty to sub 10%.

Bro… this is just wild. I have no idea how you’ve came up with this. You don’t even know the rest of their app. Both friends had similar “red flags” on their apps. Both matched decent GS. I had similar BS matched decent enough (exactly where I wanted.) If handled appropriately this can be nothing, if handled poorly it could kill ya. Advice in here is decent enough for OP to handle this just fine.

 

[OMSRealWeebHours]

Hoping it's an April Fools joke but if not, stay away from that gunner "classmate" if they tried to get you written up before even asking you directly about the situation. It's not like they would have additional responsibilities or stress since they are literally shadowing 3rd year generally.

Seems to me like they are a shark who is trying to thin the competition for Plastics or some crap

 

[Just D.O. it]

Bro… this is just wild. I have no idea how you’ve came up with this. You don’t even know the rest of their app. Both friends had similar “red flags” on their apps. Both matched decent GS. I had similar BS matched decent enough (exactly where I wanted.) If handled appropriately this can be nothing, if handled poorly it could kill ya. Advice in here is decent enough for OP to handle this just fine.

Are you/your friends DO students? What is considered a “competitive” speciality” is very different for us. My medical school’s spotless applicants with great scores are lucky to snag even a mid tier GS residency. The more “average” students go about 50/50 in terms of their ability to match categorical GS at all. Things like GS are “easy” matches for MD students and my advice to OP would be less gloom and doom if he/she were an MD student.

Outside of the more “forgiving” specialties I mentioned, DOs have a 60something% match rate or lower. I don’t think I’m being unreasonable at all saying that chances in said specialties don’t look good for a DO with an F/remediation on their record no matter the justification they put forth for it.

Now granted my opinion is based on the outcomes of my own DO medical school and others in the region that I keep up with.

I’d be interested to hear from @Goro and other DO faculty regarding what he has seen in recent cycles regarding his students with red flags matching what were traditionally “medium competitive” specialties like Rads/Gas/GenSurg because based on what I’m hearing these specialties are getting tougher and tougher to get in for whatever reason (migrations from EM/change in med student priorities/the rapid cropping up of more and more DO schools in general.)

 

[Goro]

OP will still be OK for Primary Care specialties, especially ones that fail to get enough PGY1s.

 

[WhereMyLiberalsAt]

Are you/your friends DO students?

All of us are DOs. Like I said they matched decent GS (competitive regions, or solid program.) I matched one of those 60% match rate specialties in what I believe is a solid program.

To think this cooks their app is crazy. I don’t give &$@£ what pre clinical faculty on here have to say on the matter. They’re the ones that advised me and my friends to apply to a different specialties.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

All of us are DOs. Like I said they matched decent GS (competitive regions, or solid program.) I matched one of those 60% match rate specialties in what I believe is a solid program.

To think this cooks their app is crazy. I don’t give &$@£ what pre clinical faculty on here have to say on the matter. They’re the ones that advised me and my friends to apply to a different specialties.

I am not GS, but I have heard in my specialty and a few others that many programs do rank you below people without red flags if you have any. I don't know if this is customary at most programs or depends on the type of offense. While I agree this far from cooks their app, I also wouldn't apply without some backup specialty just in case. The match is getting progressively worse by the year

 

[OMSRealWeebHours]

I am not GS, but I have heard in my specialty and a few others that many programs do rank you below people without red flags if you have any. I don't know if this is customary at most programs or depends on the type of offense. While I agree this far from cooks their app, I also wouldn't apply without some backup specialty just in case. The match is getting progressively worse by the year

How's it getting worse? Are there more students applying

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

How's it getting worse? Are there more students applying

Yes, there are more schools opening every year

 

[OMSRealWeebHours]

Yes, there are more schools opening every year

And not as many residencies?

I hope it's not impossible to land anything besides FM or IM by then. Not touching surgery with a 10-foot pole but I see myself doing better in some other specialty. Already reasoned I would probably end up taking USMLE (and studying for that primarily instead of COMLEX since some who have taken both said the questions are supposedly higher order) and possibly a bit of clinical research...

That is if I can get through the courses lol. Thank the lord it's P/F