Specific Examples of Electrodiagnostic Testing Changing your Management

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drg123

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We often get consults for NCS/EMG regarding patients with pain. I like doing the studies, but I often wonder whether the EDx testing really changes anything for anyone. Sure, confirming a radic may push you to do that LESI, and maybe give a better sense of the level, but many would go ahead and try the LESI even without the EDx.

So I wanted to ask this audience for some actual case examples of when and why you ordered EDx and how it specifically changed your management.

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In fellowship the only times our patients had these were when surgeons ordered them. I can't think of a time when I actually ever ordered one.
 
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it helps when you have a good electromyographer or the diagnosis is in doubt. it also helps when there are 2 concomitant disorders.

if you can diagnose an L4 radic vs. L5, it will probably change the level of the injection. it "may" make the injection ore effective. if a patient has a RTC tear AND a cervical HNP it can differentiate. if a patient has stenosis and a neuropathy, you can get an idea of which one is the dominant issue

EMG can help in prognosis after a known injury (like foot drop pre or post surgery or C5 palsy after a decompression for cervical myelopathy

the worst thing i see is when a bad EMGer calls everything a radic and gives the surgeon carte-blanche to operate everywhere

in general, however, they are over-ordered
 
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I rarely order them for my patients (maybe 1-2 per month) but common examples:
- Overlapping cervical radic vs carpal tunnel symptoms - rarely changes my management except severe CTS gets surgical decompression before ESI.
- Non-specific symptoms in someone seeing me for 3rd/4th opinion. Picked up a few undiagnosed CTS and one CMT. Picked up a lot of normal studies.
 
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Most helpful for CTS, ulnar neuropathy

Most people do not realize it is usually normal with the radicular issues unless really severe. Basically if you do not have positive true physical exam findings with the radic like significant weakness or numbness most likely the EMG is going to be normal, more specifically the needle exam

Also helpful with plexopathy's if you are trying to sort that out in the setting of weakness and numbness in the limb but the MRI is pretty unimpressive

Yes overall probably was a lot more helpful before we had MRIs

Most of us are not seeing a ton of AIDP or CIDP, motor neuron disease, etc. so I do not send out a lot of them

Something I might order in the context of what seems like neurologic weakness but a normal looking MRI of the spine in the area supplying that region
 
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CTS vs radic (most common reason)
UNE vs radic (rare)
Brachial neuritis vs radic (rare)
ALS vs myelopathy (once)
 
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carpal tunnel vs cervical radic

cervical radic vs brachial plexopathy

and L4 radic vs meralgia paresthetica.
 
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edx testing helps prognosticate recovery of Neuro function s/p decompression. Chronic only PNI doesn’t change much. Acute on chronic you may prevent worsening loss of function etc and some recovery

Good honest surgeons don’t operate much on chronic PNI
 
As a PMR/Pain physician, I use/order EMGs for mostly one reason….to demonstrate when a patient is full of ****.

All the WC theoretical work nerve injuries or the Medicaid “my leg hurts more since your procedure”, or Medicaid “I have sciatica” (with stone cold normal MRI)

That way I can document they have no real anatomical issues and discharge them.
 
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Many instances of EDX helping differentiate C6 from CTS
L5 versus S1 with H reflex
A few times prognosticating injury with CMAP amplitudes.
Diagnosed ALS more times than I wished
Radic versus peroneal neuropathy n=1

I hate doing EMGs at this point in my career.
 
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I hate doing EMGs at this point in my career.
I hate them too. Fortunately, I found a part time person this year to take over EMGs at my orthopedic practice. Wanted to do this well in advance of becoming a full partner later this year so the precedent is now set.

If that guy decides he no longer wants to do our EMGs in a couple years, the practice will have to look for another part time person because “partner” Bedrock will only be doing Interventional Pain in the future.
 
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it helps when you have a good electromyographer or the diagnosis is in doubt. it also helps when there are 2 concomitant disorders.

if you can diagnose an L4 radic vs. L5, it will probably change the level of the injection. it "may" make the injection ore effective. if a patient has a RTC tear AND a cervical HNP it can differentiate. if a patient has stenosis and a neuropathy, you can get an idea of which one is the dominant issue

EMG can help in prognosis after a known injury (like foot drop pre or post surgery or C5 palsy after a decompression for cervical myelopathy

the worst thing i see is when a bad EMGer calls everything a radic and gives the surgeon carte-blanche to operate everywhere

in general, however, they are over-ordered
Nominal value in someone with stenosis and neuropathy in terms of changing management. Are you not injecting a stenosis pt. If they have a peripheral neuropathy?

Most studies are poorly done and thereby nearly worthless.

I would often talk people out of getting an EMG/NCS when sent for an obvious radic with concordat MRI findings.
 
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This last week, new patient with left arm shingles 3 months ago— radicular pain in arm and muscle wasting. Suspect from a segmental PHN, though prior to doing 5 day epidural catheter treatment k get MRI. had a single level severe foraminal stenosis of C5 so just to confirm got study. NCS with C5 through 7 radic.
 
This last week, new patient with left arm shingles 3 months ago— radicular pain in arm and muscle wasting. Suspect from a segmental PHN, though prior to doing 5 day epidural catheter treatment k get MRI. had a single level severe foraminal stenosis of C5 so just to confirm got study. NCS with C5 through 7 radic.
Sounds like a poor study. I buy report describing a c5,6. C7 doesn’t compute with described MRI.
 
This last week, new patient with left arm shingles 3 months ago— radicular pain in arm and muscle wasting. Suspect from a segmental PHN, though prior to doing 5 day epidural catheter treatment k get MRI. had a single level severe foraminal stenosis of C5 so just to confirm got study. NCS with C5 through 7 radic.
So how does single level severe framinal stenosis, translate into a three level ridiculopathy. That’s why the studies are useless.
 
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I do alot of emg/ncs for ortho group (nearly 400 a year total from all referrals) and at prior job did nearly that many mostly for upper extremity ortho group. Think it can be helpful for peripheral entrapment vs radic at times.

Not a very good study for radics. Very, very rarely helpful for central stenosis. Lower extremity ncs is fraught with confounding variables in elderly patients. Amazing how often I get referrals for" r/o BL carpal tunnel vs cubital tunnel vs neuropathy vs radiculopathy" in a patient that is profoundly myelopathic.

Have alot of pcps who send for "neuropathy" never really get what my study adds to management.


I order few emgs myself.
 
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This last week, new patient with left arm shingles 3 months ago— radicular pain in arm and muscle wasting. Suspect from a segmental PHN, though prior to doing 5 day epidural catheter treatment k get MRI. had a single level severe foraminal stenosis of C5 so just to confirm got study. NCS with C5 through 7 radic.
You do 5 day epidural catheters? I thought those were over...
 
As a PMR/Pain physician, I use/order EMGs for mostly one reason….to demonstrate when a patient is full of ****.

All the WC theoretical work nerve injuries or the Medicaid “my leg hurts more since your procedure”, or Medicaid “I have sciatica” (with stone cold normal MRI)

That way I can document they have no real anatomical issues and discharge them.
Sorry so I’m understanding this correctly you get a normal MRI *and* EMG to support it is largely made up and exaggerated?

As a learning exercise for non WC and Medicaid patients do you still inject a ESI with a normal EMG? I suppose yes. Others are welcome to chime in.
 
As a PMR/Pain physician, I use/order EMGs for mostly one reason….to demonstrate when a patient is full of ****.

All the WC theoretical work nerve injuries or the Medicaid “my leg hurts more since your procedure”, or Medicaid “I have sciatica” (with stone cold normal MRI)

That way I can document they have no real anatomical issues and discharge them.
I do the same.
 
Sorry so I’m understanding this correctly you get a normal MRI *and* EMG to support it is largely made up and exaggerated?

As a learning exercise for non WC and Medicaid patients do you still inject a ESI with a normal EMG? I suppose yes. Others are welcome to chime in.
If patient has persistent symptoms, negative imaging, can’t make clear diagnosis on exam or history, generally I will order a different test (EMG), or else I’m referring to a different specialist for a consult. I generally try to avoid telling patients they’re making up their ailments, rather just tell them I don’t know what’s wrong.
 
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So how does single level severe framinal stenosis, translate into a three level ridiculopathy. That’s why the studies are useless.
It doesn’t. Clinical picture was PHN with segmental paresis, after seeing MRI if isolated C5 radic showed up on EMG it would’ve changed management. Was looking for something specific, didn’t happen so we have moved on.

As an aside, I’m young in experience, hadn’t seen something like this before with Shingles:
 
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Sorry so I’m understanding this correctly you get a normal MRI *and* EMG to support it is largely made up and exaggerated?

As a learning exercise for non WC and Medicaid patients do you still inject a ESI with a normal EMG? I suppose yes. Others are welcome to chime in.

Simple fact is that a very high proportion of both WC and medicaid patients have secondary gain issues.

Very different from a regular joe, trying to get back to playing his favorite sport, or to play with his kids without pain.

If an MRI is basically normally unrevealing and the WC/medicaid patient is swearing up and down they have lots of leg pain (because they read this on the internet), then I get the EMG to show no nerve damage. I recommend “your pcp write you for NSAIDs, gabapentin, etc, and no need to see me again”

If a normal person complains of radicular pain and their MRI is stone cold normal, then of course no ESI. But same person, with only mild disc changes, then yes I will do a diagnostic ESI and the vast majority are helpful..........(for that specific patient without secondary gain issues)
 
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Simple fact is that a very high proportion of both WC and medicaid patients have secondary gain issues.

Very different from a regular joe, trying to get back to playing his favorite sport, or to play with his kids without pain.

If an MRI is basically normally unrevealing and the WC/medicaid patient is swearing up and down they have lots of leg pain (because they read this on the internet), then I get the EMG to show no nerve damage. I recommend your pcp write you for NSAIDs, etc, and no need to see me again.

If a normal person complains of radicular pain and their MRI is stone cold normal, then of course no ESI. But same person, with only mild disc changes, then yes I will do a diagnostic ESI and the vast majority are helpful..........(for that specific patient without secondary gain issues)
Diagnostic ESI. :rofl:
 
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Unfortunately there is a doc in the community who writes “lumbar radiculopathy, consistent with work injury and MRI findings” for every WC patient that comes into my office who has seen her. The MRI shows non-compressive, better than age-appropriate, disc bulges and neuro exam is normal. Pain is always down the back of the leg, even if the bulge touches L3. Her reports always indicate polyphasics and no fibs/PSWs.

It’s hard to find a good electromyographer, but I agree with everyone’s sentiments that it is most often useful when you think there is spine pathology going on but think there may also be something else (CTS) going on.
 
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If patient has radicular symptoms and MRI shows nerve root compression from stenosis or disc, that may not always turn up on an EMG/NCS. In the case of radiculopathy, NCS has little value. It may show some decreased motor amplitude in affected distribution (ex. decreased motor fibular or motor tibial amplitudes in an L5 or S1 radiculopathy, or decreased median motor or ulnar motor for C8-T1 radiculopathy), however, this is not always the case. Sensory NCS is not affected as these lesions are preganglionic and the nerve from DRG to distal area where NCS is taking place is intact. For EMG, the first thing you'll see for an acute radiculopathy is reduced recruitment of motor unit potentials, followed by the development of spontaneous activity later, and large motor unit potentials even later. An EMG prior to 3 weeks of symptoms is not helpful really at all since there hasn't been enough time to actually have any of those findings develop. Now, just because the EMG/NCS is normal, doesn't mean that there isn't a radiculopathy, just means there is no electrodiagnostic/electrophysiologic evidence of a radiculopathy. If an acute radiculopathy without EMG/NCS evidence, with the predominant symptom being pain, would still try an epidural for pain relief. If symptoms are numbness/tingling or weakness, wouldn't do the injection necessarily. For weakness I might consider decompression.

I personally feel that EMG/NCS is most helpful for:
1. Determining electrophysiologic evidence of peripheral nerve or muscle diseases. Some of these are painful, which may go across Pain Medicine's door, but others present with numbness, tingling, weakness, cramping, fasciculations, atrophy, etc, and may not be typically seen by Pain.
2. As stated above, differentiating between 2 potentially overlapping suspected pathologies. By differentiating between 2, can better guide treatment.
3. Monitoring reinnervation after initiation of medication or after surgery. Example. CIDP patient diagnosed by EMG/NCS, started on immunosuppression medication, rechecked to see electrophysiologic response. Or, patient receives nerve graft for a muscle that previously had no motor units firing and to see if it takes and helps regain some function.
4. Disease progression monitoring. Example. ALS diagnosed via EMG/NCS but 6 months later patient is functionally worse. Can recheck EMG/NCS to see extent of disease progression, particularly if certain muscles are electrophysiologically beginning to be affected before visually being seen as affected.

Confirming "neuropathy" may be more of an academic thing, however, there are many causes of neuropathy that (A) progress differently and (B) present differently on EMG/NCS. A patient with diabetes with family history of charcot-marie-tooth may take some time to differentiate out which is causing the neuropathy. This will be key for progression of disease. Neuromuscular ultrasound is also being using to help look at specific nerves, in conjunction with EMG/NCS, to help more accurately diagnose NM conditions.
 
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I stopped EMG's after that reimbursement drop from ~10 years ago. Also because I tended to get a lot of edematous patients and their lower limb studies required max stim and duration, but with usually no response. Patients like that need Kimura's old-school needle stimulations I guess.
 
This is a very interesting thread. In training we never really ordered them unless the clinical picture was not clear but we would often get reports mentioning chronic radic or nonradic and maybe CTS etc. Where I practise now my colleagues order them quite frequently.

I am curious on people's approach in context of discordant EMG and clinical picture. How would it change people's management if the patient with prior peripheral nerve entrapment syndrome had an EMG before being seen in clinic for cervical radiculopathy and had moderate foramen stenosis correlating to their presntation and a severe central stenosis but EMG just shows a known old ulnar/median neuropathy but no cervical radiculopathy despite a convincing picture for cervical ridiculopathy but EMG physicians specifically comments no surgical referral/spinal interventions warranted?

Would this change anyone's approach or still try a CILESI after conservative treatment and surgical referral if no long lived response?
 
This is a very interesting thread. In training we never really ordered them unless the clinical picture was not clear but we would often get reports mentioning chronic radic or nonradic and maybe CTS etc. Where I practise now my colleagues order them quite frequently.

I am curious on people's approach in context of discordant EMG and clinical picture. How would it change people's management if the patient with prior peripheral nerve entrapment syndrome had an EMG before being seen in clinic for cervical radiculopathy and had moderate foramen stenosis correlating to their presntation and a severe central stenosis but EMG just shows a known old ulnar/median neuropathy but no cervical radiculopathy despite a convincing picture for cervical ridiculopathy but EMG physicians specifically comments no surgical referral/spinal interventions warranted?

Would this change anyone's approach or still try a CILESI after conservative treatment and surgical referral if no long lived response?
EMG isn't sensitive for radic, so negative for radic means nothing. Proceed with ESI/surgery.
 
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That's what I ended up doing but I got a bit thrown off when the EMG physician specifically said not to do these things. I've never seen any emg'er say specifically the surgery is not warranted... Maybe I haven't read enough reports from well from electromyelopgraphers
 
That's what I ended up doing but I got a bit thrown off when the EMG physician specifically said not to do these things. I've never seen any emg'er say specifically the surgery is not warranted... Maybe I haven't read enough reports from well from electromyelopgraphers
That is a bit strange. Especially since I'm assuming they don't have MRI, probably not going a history/exam, just the test.

A group who does a lot of work comp defense might say that.
 
We did them a lot in fellowship usually when there was concern for weakness. The EMG/NCS could help determine if the weakness was due to peripheral nerve entrapment or active radiculopathy. In some cases it could also give insight to prognosis/severity eg if we saw 3+ fibs in several L5 innervated muscles this might push treatment towards surgical decompression. Agree with other posters though that negative EMG doesn't rule out radiculopathy, it just means the nerve is getting "irritated" as opposed to actually "damaged." There were also some rare instances where the patient had questionable cervical myelopathy and a negative EMG could help aid the diagnosis.
 
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This is a very interesting thread. In training we never really ordered them unless the clinical picture was not clear but we would often get reports mentioning chronic radic or nonradic and maybe CTS etc. Where I practise now my colleagues order them quite frequently.

I am curious on people's approach in context of discordant EMG and clinical picture. How would it change people's management if the patient with prior peripheral nerve entrapment syndrome had an EMG before being seen in clinic for cervical radiculopathy and had moderate foramen stenosis correlating to their presntation and a severe central stenosis but EMG just shows a known old ulnar/median neuropathy but no cervical radiculopathy despite a convincing picture for cervical ridiculopathy but EMG physicians specifically comments no surgical referral/spinal interventions warranted?

Would this change anyone's approach or still try a CILESI after conservative treatment and surgical referral if no long lived response?
An EMG that says "no electrophysiologic evidence for cervical radiculopathy" means exactly what it says. There is no electrodiagnostic evidence of it; however, that doesn't mean there isn't clinically a cervical radiculopathy. Like I mentioned above, an EMG that shows evidence of cervical radiculopathy usually means there is motor involvement (low motor NCS amplitude, fibrillation potentials in muscle (if active), potential polyphasic potentials, and/or long duration high amplitude reduced recruitment motor unit potentials on needle EMG). Sensory NCS will not be affected with radiculopathy. Cervical radiculopathy can present with +/- pain, +/- numbness, +/- tingling, +/- weakness... If the nerve root has been "damaged" then the EMG should be abnormal. If not damaged, this would be more akin to an "irritated" nerve root, maybe amenable to ESI if pain is an overarching symptom.
 
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Here's an example. A "male fibro" patient was referred for EMG for weakness. EMG showed he had motor neuron disease. PCP wanted to know if doubling the duloxetine would help. Instead, I recommended that the patient be referred to a tertiary care ALS center and enrolled in a clinical trial.

#EMGgamechanger
 
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Here's an example. A "male fibro" patient was referred for EMG for weakness. EMG showed he had motor neuron disease. PCP wanted to know if doubling the duloxetine would help. Instead, I recommended that the patient be referred to a tertiary care ALS center and enrolled in a clinical trial.

#EMGgamechanger

ill catch 1 of these/year. doesnt get any easier
 
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There were also some rare instances where the patient had questionable cervical myelopathy and a negative EMG could help aid the diagnosis.
Agree with first part, but this erroneous.

EMG is reasonably sensitive in identifying postganglionic nerve damage. It is nearly worthless for central lesions, e.g. spinal stenosis, myelopathy.

With a supraganglionic or “central” lesion, the emg/ncs would demonstrate normal or non-specific findings.
 
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Agree with first part, but this erroneous.

EMG is reasonably sensitive in identifying postganglionic nerve damage. It is nearly worthless for central lesions, e.g. spinal stenosis, myelopathy.

With a supragamgloinic or “central” lesion, the emg/ncs would demonstrate normal or non-specific findings.
I think what was meant here was that, for example, in a patient with weakness and a suspected cervical myelopathy, a negative (normal study) EMG is expected. However, a normal study doesn't rule in cervical myelopathy, rather it just assists in ruling out other peripheral causes of weakness (radiculopathies, plexopathies, peripheral nerve injuries, polyneuropathies, myopathies, etc.)
 
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Another indication I find EDX useful is in patients referred with widespread pain, fatigue, weakness, and chief complaint of "inflammado." Normal study rules out many possible causes for the "inflammado."
 
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Another indication I find EDX useful is in patients referred with widespread pain, fatigue, weakness, and chief complaint of "inflammado." Normal study rules out many possible causes for the "inflammado."
Also sensitive for aye-aye-aye-itis if it wasn’t readily identifiable on exam.
 
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We often get consults for NCS/EMG regarding patients with pain. I like doing the studies, but I often wonder whether the EDx testing really changes anything for anyone. Sure, confirming a radic may push you to do that LESI, and maybe give a better sense of the level, but many would go ahead and try the LESI even without the EDx.

So I wanted to ask this audience for some actual case examples of when and why you ordered EDx and how it specifically changed your management.
I use it a lot of times to assess for any chronic changes. Say for example the patient had surgery in the lumbar spine and has persistent radicular pain. I would be more comfortable with doing a spinal cord stimulator with chronic changes illustrated an EMG
 
Simple fact is that a very high proportion of both WC and medicaid patients have secondary gain issues.

Very different from a regular joe, trying to get back to playing his favorite sport, or to play with his kids without pain.

If an MRI is basically normally unrevealing and the WC/medicaid patient is swearing up and down they have lots of leg pain (because they read this on the internet), then I get the EMG to show no nerve damage. I recommend “your pcp write you for NSAIDs, gabapentin, etc, and no need to see me again”

If a normal person complains of radicular pain and their MRI is stone cold normal, then of course no ESI. But same person, with only mild disc changes, then yes I will do a diagnostic ESI and the vast majority are helpful..........(for that specific patient without secondary gain issues)
I agree with you.

To play devils advocate what do you say if there’s a 1-2mm disc bulge? I mean realistically that’s not causing their radicular complaints but the WC/Medicaid patient might argue it does.
 
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