WAMC 524/3.7, international, USA resident

[heartman1998]

• cGPA: 3.7, sGPA: 3.65, grad GPA: 3.9
• MCAT: 524 (132/130/132/130)
• Residence: Citizen of Asian country, California resident (green card)
• Ethnicity: ORM
• Undergrad: Berkeley, engineering
• Clinical volunteering: 250 hours
• Research experience and productivity
  • Old engineering career: few thousand hours, 10+ pubs
  • medical research: 1000 hours, 2 pubs
• Shadowing: 200+ hours across multiple specialties
• Other extracurricular activities:
  • Very successful research career in old field. Want to work in an interdisciplinary area.
• MD School List: Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Stanford, Cornell, Yale, Sinai, Keck, UCSF, UCLA
  • I would add more, but I'm quite picky about location.
  • Looking for heavy research focus

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[Faha]

Which locations are you unwilling to relocate to ?

 

[heartman1998]

I desperately want to stay in Manhattan or move to the Bay area. As a much older applicant, I have to think about putting down roots somewhere. I'm already making an exception for Harvard. Yale in Connecticut would be my last choice.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Shadowing? Community service?

 

[heartman1998]

@Mr.Smile12 Edited the post for clarity! My volunteering/community-service was in a clinical setting.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

@Mr.Smile12 Edited the post for clarity! My volunteering/community-service was in a clinical setting.

So no nonclinical community service?

 

[Faha]

I desperately want to stay in Manhattan or move to the Bay area. As a much older applicant, I have to think about putting down roots somewhere. I'm already making an exception for Harvard. Yale in Connecticut would be my last choice.

Add NYU, Einstein, Hofstra, New York Medical College and Hackensack. In California you could add UCSD, UC Irvine, Kaiser.

 

[heartman1998]

@Mr.Smile12 I don't have any non-clinical volunteering. I had a successful career in a different industry. Volunteering my time away would have been akin to a surgeon pouring soup instead of operating. I could, and did, donate and have a greater impact that way. I pursued clinical volunteering to understand what I was getting into and confirm my commitment.

@Faha Ah, yes, I'm already applying to NYU! It's actually my target school. I just forgot to include it here haha.

Oh! I didn't realize that Kaiser was in LA! I will add it to my list. Thank you!

I don't want to live in SD or Irvine or NYC burbs.

Can you help me determine my chances at the current school list? Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Stanford, Cornell, Yale, Sinai, NYU, Keck, UCSF, UCLA, Kaiser

 

[Faha]

@Mr.Smile12 I don't have any non-clinical volunteering. I had a successful career in a different industry. Volunteering my time away would have been akin to a surgeon pouring soup instead of operating. I could, and did, donate and have a greater impact that way. I pursued clinical volunteering to understand what I was getting into and confirm my commitment.

@Faha Ah, yes, I'm already applying to NYU! It's actually my target school. I just forgot to include it here haha.

Oh! I didn't realize that Kaiser was in LA! I will add it to my list. Thank you!

I don't want to live in SD or Irvine or NYC burbs.

Can you help me determine my chances at the current school list? Harvard, Penn, Columbia, Stanford, Cornell, Yale, Sinai, NYU, Keck, UCSF, UCLA, Kaiser

You could receive interviews with your stats. Those schools are all very competitive so no guarantee of an acceptance. Let us know how your cycle goes in the future.

 

[heartman1998]

Thank you! I will update here as my cycle progresses.

I know it's late in the cycle, but I figured that if they interview me now, then I have as good a chance as someone who interviewed earlier in the cycle.

And if I don't even get an interview at this point, it's unlikely that I would have received an acceptance from a hypothetical earlier application and interview.

 

[Goro]

@Mr.Smile12 I don't have any non-clinical volunteering. I had a successful career in a different industry. Volunteering my time away would have been akin to a surgeon pouring soup instead of operating.

That's most likely going to be lethal.
Altruism + humanism is a required competency.
From the wise LizzyM: I am always reminded of a certain frequent poster of a few years ago. He was adamant about not volunteering as he did not want to give his services for free and he was busy and helping others was inconvenient. He matriculated to a medical school and lasted less than one year. He's now in school to become an accountant.

 

[eigen]

I’ll be honest, I still volunteer regularly as a faculty member. I’d be extremely skeptical of an applicant who looked down on volunteering time to help those less fortunate as a waste of their time and skills.

 

[heartman1998]

I don't look down on volunteering. I am just a follower of effective altruism: What is effective altruism? | Effective Altruism.

A hedge fund exec is better off spending the time making 1% more and donating it than cleaning litter boxes at an animal shelter. A surgeon would be wasting his skills at a soup kitchen. I do something similar in my line of work.

 

[heartman1998]

Yes, and this is why I pursued clinical volunteering. My experiences were such that I was exposed to people from diverse backgrounds and SES.

 

[eigen]

A hedge fund exec is better off spending the time making 1% more and donating it than cleaning litter boxes at an animal shelter. A surgeon would be wasting his skills at a soup kitchen. I do something similar in my line of work.

You're phrasing it as either or and not both.

You can both donate 1% of your income and donate your time.

Communicating the idea that your time is "too valuable" to spend it helping to provide basic comfort and compassion to people who are in need of it is, in my view, a problematic one for someone who wants to seek a career built around providing hands-on care.

 

[Med Ed]

I don't look down on volunteering. I am just a follower of effective altruism: What is effective altruism? | Effective Altruism.

That's great, but the first rule in winning a game is to understand the rules of the game.

In your case, a late app + top heavy school list + zero non-clinical volunteering is a remarkably poor strategy. Could you get lucky? Sure, the only certainly in an application cycle is persistent uncertainty. But for someone who is ostensibly quite intelligent, you've really hamstrung yourself.

 

[atriablack]

My guy, regardless of your views, you gotta work on your phrasing. It reads as arrogant and while that might be well-deserved arrogance, it will rub people the wrong way. Find a way to convey your perspective humbly and with a demonstration of your willingness to serve. Otherwise all your motivations will land flat as you attempt to convince the world around you that you want to switch over to a service-based profession.

 

[heartman1998]

My guy, regardless of your views, you gotta work on your phrasing. It reads as arrogant and while that might be well-deserved arrogance, it will rub people the wrong way. Find a way to convey your perspective humbly and with a demonstration of your willingness to serve. Otherwise all your motivations will land flat as you attempt to convince the world around you that you want to switch over to a service-based profession.

Yes, this is my problem. I'm too blunt in my pragmatism. I will work on presenting better.

 

[GoSpursGo]

While I generally agree with everyone that the OP should learn and play by the rules of medical school admissions (ie get out of your comfort zone and volunteer your time), I will also say that I think it's hard to apply the "usual" rules in a one size fits all approach for very nontraditional applicants like the OP. While the OP may not have all of the "normal" parts of a med school application, 99% of the "normal" applicants are not going to have the OP's prior successful engineering career. As a physician scientist, I can't express strongly enough how much I value my engineering colleagues, so I could imagine that a physician-scientist with an engineering background could be very attractive to some of these programs.

I think a lot will hinge on: 1) How successful your prior career has been in terms of how high-impact your publications are and the amount of independent funding you have received (if in academia)/value of patents you have filed (if in industry); 2) How well you are able to specifically convey how becoming a physician will enhance your potential for an impactful research career; 3) How much applying late in the cycle is going to hurt you. While you have a very interesting and unique application, you're competing for fewer interview spots at these programs at this point, and it may take a while for programs to even get a chance to find your application in the giant pile of applications they have to review. I suppose in your case if you have the money to spend, there's no downside to shooting your shot, but you should prepare for a possible reapplication starting now.

Please do let us know how your application season turns out. I would recommend getting some of the nonclinical volunteering that you're lacking, and strongly consider expanding your school list if you need to reapply. I hear you about not wanting to uproot yourself in your 30s, but being willing to relocate for 4 years to get this degree will completely change your career trajectory regardless of where you get it from.

 

[Med Ed]

While I generally agree with everyone that the OP should learn and play by the rules of medical school admissions (ie get out of your comfort zone and volunteer your time), I will also say that I think it's hard to apply the "usual" rules in a one size fits all approach for very nontraditional applicants like the OP. While the OP may not have all of the "normal" parts of a med school application, 99% of the "normal" applicants are not going to have the OP's prior successful engineering career. As a physician scientist, I can't express strongly enough how much I value my engineering colleagues, so I could imagine that a physician-scientist with an engineering background could be very attractive to some of these programs.

This is true, and getting an acceptance this cycle may hinge on some sympathetic adcom member deciding to die on the hill of getting OP a seat. Markedly non-traditional applicants have sparked some of the most contentious discussions I've seen.

My personal experience with engineers turning to medicine is decidedly mixed. They are uniformly very intelligent, and tend to be fairly concrete thinkers with utilitarian tendencies (see effective altruism). Some flourish, others have trouble contending with the inherent messiness of biological systems and human behavior. That said, medicine is pretty big tent, and there are a lot of niches for people with different skills.

 

[eigen]

As a non-physician basic scientist, I also strongly value my non-MD colleagues. And hope the MD's value me.

2) How well you are able to specifically convey how becoming a physician will enhance your potential for an impactful research career;

I think this part is the key, and I would also think that the OP needs to have articulated the specific value of an MD over other options like a graduate degree in biomedical sciences. I will note that their comments about a PhD being a waste because "they wouldn't learn anything past what they already know" and comments about not wanting to do a residency so they can go into finance/investing after an MD give me pause about how well this is being articulated in the application.

I also suspect program fit is a huge component, as mentioned.

 

[GoSpursGo]

and comments about not wanting to do a residency so they can go into finance/investing after an MD give me pause about how well this is being articulated in the application..

I missed these kinds of comments, but completely agree. And I disagree that you could avoid doing residency—in order to be able to really make use of your MD you should do residency and get board certified in something.

 

[LindaAccepted]

I'm replying to your post in the closed thread. I said there that applying late in this cycle when your chances of acceptance are less or waiting to apply early in next cycle when your chances of acceptance are higher is a personal choice. You asked what's the downside of applying now. Here are the downsides:

1. Applying costs money and and time. Many don't want to spend both if they don't think they're going to see an optimal return.
2. Applying is also an emotional investment. Rejection doesn't feel great and they prefer to avoid it.
3. They are concerned about applying multiple times and wasting an app cycle at a time when their chances aren't great.

it sounds like the expense is not a big deal to you. If the other two items are also not a big deal to you and you really want to get started earlier, you may feel that a reduced chance of acceptance (applying now) is better than no chance of acceptance.

Regardless of whether you apply now or later, I also encourage community service and more clinical exposure.

Is it possible for you to get accepted given your stats this cycle and without the additional volunteering? Yes. However, why reduce your chances in a highly competitive process?

 

[Goro]

My personal experience with engineers turning to medicine is decidedly mixed. They are uniformly very intelligent, and tend to be fairly concrete thinkers with utilitarian tendencies (see effective altruism). Some flourish, others have trouble contending with the inherent messiness of biological systems and human behavior.

This has been the experience as well at my school.

 

[LindaAccepted]

Also "effective altruism" might be getting somewhat of a tarnished reputation. I'm seeing it mostly in connection with Sam Bankman-Fried, who is currently on trial for fraud in connection with the collapse of FTX. While no one is guilty until proven so and the fact he advocated effective altruism doesn't mean all who advocate it will be in his shoes, he was a big advocate of "effective altruism." The association may be there.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I think the number 1 challenge is showing that you are actually teachable. As an engineer, you are used to problem solving in a specific way, and it is tough to conform to the different cultures and expectations of Medical Education early on. If you cannot show that you can become humble as the low person on the totem pole even with a PhD, you won't make it through the subjective part of medical training, which also determines your success. Throwing out terms like Effective Altruism would make me throw out the file as I feel you are lecturing me on how to value your application in opposition to what my rubric and committee wants.

You will encounter many physicians who are blunt and don't care. Whatever you do, don't return the favor when you are a student or resident. It also doesn't mean Medicine wants more doctors like this.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

1) Get more nonclinical volunteering. Ideally you'd have 300 hours.
2) Really think about why you want a career in medicine. You don't want to be that guy who drops out two weeks in medical school to go back to their high-paying engineering job: a waste of a lot of time and money.
3) Find a way to come off as less arrogant. This goes quadruple if you genuinely did not realize how you were coming off; in that case, I might go as far as seeking professional help.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

It's difficult to think of you as not a troll. Your school list is a handful of top % schools, moving to harvard is a "compromise", your logical views prevent you from doing hard, emotionally involved, (sometimes degrading), thankless work, (that literally every other student does), and the cherry on top is you are five months late to apply but think you are still remotely (and I mean remotely) competitive for even DO school at this point?

Everyone has been way too nice, you need a reality check, an attitude adjustment, and fast. There is absolutely 0% chance someone will not sniff your bull#$%^ a mile away and dumpster your app.

This is not meant as a personal attack. I'm sure you have a lot to offer, but if you can't take advice from your peers, you are going to be eaten alive by the healthcare world.

Best of luck.

 

[Goro]

This is not meant as a personal attack. I'm sure you have a lot to offer, but if you can't take advice from your peers, you are going to be eaten alive by the healthcare world.

Best of luck.

Indeed. People get dismissed from residency for being unteachable.

 

[ByThe+C]

For some reason, I feel that OP's attitude of "blunt pragmatism" would not be a problem for some top schools like Penn and Cornell which, based on my anecdotal experience, seem to attract that kind of people.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

Yeah - it's a bit late in the game this cycle. That aside...on paper your application looks great. Yeah, the GPA's a bit low for those rockstar schools that you're targeting. However, you've also had a pretty solid engineering career and a dozen publications. That matters, too. However, all of that - from what I see here - is completely overshadowed by your attitude. You will be eaten alive in the healthcare field if you cannot listen to and integrate feedback. I hope that you are either a troll or have decided to remain in your engineering career, where you are quite successful. There is nothing stopping you from becoming a good physician other than your attitude; if you want to practice medicine you will have to work and hard at coming off less abrasive, harsh, and arrogant than you now do. Good luck, whatever you decide.

 

[heartman1998]

If you can't take advice from your peers, you are going to be eaten alive by the healthcare world.

I am actually very open to criticism. I have the benefit of having had a full career, and I know my strengths and weaknesses. What I've found frustrating here is the insistence on grading me using a rubric. There is a rather rigid idea of what a doctor should look like, and while I don't check certain boxes like non-clinical volunteering for a couple hundred hours, I more than compensate in other ways.

My unique background isn't common in the medical school applicant pool. I could bring a fresh perspective. Many with my experience do not want to deal with medical training. I'm banking on the uniqueness and synergy of my background to carry me through this season.

I know how to present in interviews, and I've made similar efforts in my application writing. Disregarding stats, I think my background and mission alone will allow me to outcompete most applicants. So, I'm hoping all I need is an interview.

he cherry on top is you are five months late to apply but think you are still remotely (and I mean remotely) competitive for even DO school at this point?

Is this fatal? Would I have a better shot at a T5 next year?

Three months late, no? The earliest schools receive applications is July. They got mine in October.

Am I really better off waiting a year?

 

[LunaOri]

I’m really not sure why you think your experiences are unique. We see many applicants who have had a successful career in another field and have multiple publications, and who apply months earlier. What makes your application stand out?

 

[atriablack]

Would I have a better shot at a T5 next year?

Yes. Just because you believe you have a turbo-charged car doesn't change the fact that the rest of the applicants are halfway through the race already. Apply with the best possible application: early/on time, excellent essays, and solid ECs.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

I am actually very open to criticism. I have the benefit of having had a full career, and I know my strengths and weaknesses. What I've found frustrating here is the insistence on grading me using a rubric. There is a rather rigid idea of what a doctor should look like, and while I don't check certain boxes like non-clinical volunteering for a couple hundred hours, I more than compensate in other ways.

My unique background isn't common in the medical school applicant pool. I could bring a fresh perspective. Many with my experience do not want to deal with medical training. I'm banking on the uniqueness and synergy of my background to carry me through this season.

I know how to present in interviews, and I've made similar efforts in my application writing. Disregarding stats, I think my background and mission alone will allow me to outcompete most applicants. So, I'm hoping all I need is an interview.

Is this fatal? Would I have a better shot at a T5 next year?

Three months late, no? The earliest schools receive applications is July. They got mine in October.

Am I really better off waiting a year?

You are pack fodder for those top schools you talk about. If you had presented differently, you might be towards the top end of pack fodder; your career compensates for your undergrad GPA. You are not the kind of candidate where Hopkins calls YOU and asks whether you would like to matriculate. That level of hotshot is very, very rare. Think Former Navy SEAL with 3.9s and 525+ MCATs.

You're a turbocharged car, sure, but you'd be starting from behind this year, maybe as an unskilled or arrogant driver, in a pack full of other turbocharged cars. You are not a modern Lamborghini racing a bunch of minivans and station wagons and one guy with a souped-up Toyota Corolla.

As far as more than compensating in other ways: you MUST have certain boxes checked in order to be seriously considered. Both sides know that the game's being played, but failure to check the box is a signal of either arrogance, ignorance, or rarely inability or life circumstances.

On paper, just looking at your application...getting into a top school is a crapshoot for you. This of course changes if in your research you managed to make strong connections with someone that will vouch for you, or if you were very successful in your career...something like having a first author paper in Nature or something like that. Even then, just being a strong applicant by Harvard's stratospheric standards won't save you if you come off as an arrogant jerk in an interview.

A final note: engineering and math have a well-deserved reputation for being very friendly and tolerant to blunt, abrasive, insensitive, competent people. Medicine is very much not like that. You might be able to get by while not being the most socially graceful - I've seen it done - but if that is your Achilles' heel you need to either reconsider medicine or compensate by trying to seem very kind and caring. Good luck whatever you decide.

 

[RoamingTexan]

Disregarding stats, I think my background and mission alone will allow me to outcompete most applicants. So, I'm hoping all I need is an interview.

As a non-trad myself, I certainly value a unique background or more focused mission that someone can back up with real-world experience and understanding. Having said that, I have to wonder how you are presenting your mission in your application. If it's anything like what you've mentioned on here (not doing residency, etc...), I think you may struggle to find a medical school who is looking for a student with those goals. I won't go into your perceived arrogance as others have very clearly stated their opinions, but it's definitely something I would be concerned could have leaked into your applications.

It's clear to me that you are very intelligent, but medicine is placing an ever-increasing emphasis on soft skills, and you are going to have to demonstrate your competence in those skills better than you have in this forum. Good luck to you, and please keep us in the loop on how your app cycle goes for you this year.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

I am actually very open to criticism. I have the benefit of having had a full career, and I know my strengths and weaknesses. What I've found frustrating here is the insistence on grading me using a rubric. There is a rather rigid idea of what a doctor should look like, and while I don't check certain boxes like non-clinical volunteering for a couple hundred hours, I more than compensate in other ways.

The problem is primarily your attitude. This is what interviews are for, is to filter out people like you who think their paper application makes up for glaring fundamental ideological issues with healthcare.

I have no idea who you are or why you want to be doctor. You have a degree in engineering. What activities on your application show you are committed to becoming a physician? That you value patient care above making money to donate to charoty?

The only thing remotely remarkable about your application is your MCAT, which puts you in a pool of ten thousand or so other applicants with that number with 200 spots at a school.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

The problem is primarily your attitude. This is what interviews are for, is to filter out people like you who think their paper application makes up for glaring fundamental ideological issues with healthcare.

I have no idea who you are or why you want to be doctor. You have a degree in engineering. What activities on your application show you are committed to becoming a physician? That you value patient care above making money to donate to charoty?

The only thing remotely remarkable about your application is your MCAT, which puts you in a pool of ten thousand or so other applicants with that number with 200 spots at a school.

OP's 99th-percentile MCAT is matched or exceeded by around 2,000 applicants every year. That's a pretty small number.

I'd argue that the OP's extensive research history and productivity is also somewhere in the top five percent of applicants, too.

On paper the OP is a solid, even a strong-ish applicant for top-20 schools...if they'd just checked the freaking box for clinical exposure and nonclinical volunteering. As it is? I don't know. Maybe Stanford? They've got a decent number of entrepreneurs who don't do residency but start businesses. Harvard, maybe? Carle Illinois? OP's seeming arrogance or social ineptitude is a millstone around their neck for medicine.

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

I’m really not sure why you think your experiences are unique. We see many applicants who have had a successful career in another field and have multiple publications, and who apply months earlier. What makes your application stand out?

It is pretty interesting on paper - decent GPA, great MCAT, career success/nontrad. It's still pack fodder, but could be towards the stronger end of pack fodder at top 20 schools if presented well. He isn't a Navy SEAL with a 4.0 from Harvard plus the good career and 524, that would be a stellar applicant that's no longer pack fodder at these schools. That ain't platinum, that's damn near unobtainium and we see that kind of thing in SDN maybe once or twice a year. Probably top 1 to top 0.1 percent of applicants. Not even Harvard can fill its class with people like that - maybe ten percent of their class is people like this.