Cheater in Medschool

[woolie]

Does this bother anyone else? It's been bothering me for months especially now that I am struggling to get all my stuff together for applications, find a decent job and to take the MCAT again in April:

A guy I was in post-bacc classes with is in his first semester at a local state medical school. He used to try and cheat off of me in class and got very angry when I told him to stuff it. He struck me as a very superficial and dishonest student and now I'm told he's a first year med student.

I know plenty of pre-meds cheat but I was so bummed out to see he got in to such a great school and I feel like the naive lamb, pushed aside. It makes me feel sometimes that some people who actually survive the process are not the ones you want being your doctor ...

What do other people think about cheating, scammers, etc. I feel stupid and depressed trying to be so honest ...

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[YaFwiendToluene]

Yea, I feel your pain guy. Some of the neoucom students in my class cheat ALL THE TIME. They cheat in their chemistry classes. If you encounter someone like that in the future....change your seating. Cheating IS dishonest...it is UNACCEPTABLE....but what can you do about it?...like we used to say when we were little kids...Cheaters never win and A cheater will never prosper...and this maggot you mentioned that got into medical school will find himself in a bad position one day in medical school with his cheating habits. Don't worry, just keep working hard as you have been, you've got nothing to worry about.

Cya

 

[Adcadet]

while I haven't seen any cases of cheating in college other than the "type formulas into a calculator" trick, I do think cheating sucks. It's unfair.

If the person continues to cheat in med school, he/she will only be cheating him/herself. The boards will come soon enough.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Anyone watch the 60 minutes piece on cheating?

We've become a nation of cheaters, apparantly.

 

[woolie]

I know I shouldn't waste my energy on this jerk, but what really gets me is how could he actually pull off a great MCAT score, and great grades, if he was such a skunk? When I confronted him about his cheating he acted like: what's the big deal, why shouldn't I cheat?

I work incredibly hard to get the grades I get (including my B in OrgoII) and make great sacrifices, and I am clueless how he seems to have skimmed through all this. I mean the MCAT alone is mind numbingly difficult ...

Also, I feel like I am "behind" him timewise because I tried to do the right thing and balance my life and pay my bills and not cut corners and flunk myself out.

Alright, I guess I was just letting off some pre-med steam and feeling frustrated. I love to hear everyone's similar stories!

 

[Spiderman [RNA Ladder 2003]]

Originally posted by woolie
I know I shouldn't waste my energy on this jerk, but what really gets me is how could he actually pull off a great MCAT score, and great grades, if he was such a skunk? When I confronted him about his cheating he acted like: what's the big deal, why shouldn't I cheat?

I work incredibly hard to get the grades I get (including my B in OrgoII) and make great sacrifices, and I am clueless how he seems to have skimmed through all this. I mean the MCAT alone is mind numbingly difficult ...

Also, I feel like I am "behind" him timewise because I tried to do the right thing and balance my life and pay my bills and not cut corners and flunk myself out.

Alright, I guess I was just letting off some pre-med steam and feeling frustrated. I love to hear everyone's similar stories!

You are not. In Russia, cheating is considered a part of educational process. If you are caught cheating on a written test you may have your grade reduced on letter (get b instead of A) or in most of the cases the teacher would just take the cheating notes and ask not to cheat again. Everyone know that everyone even teacher have cheated at some point.

 

[Gleevec]

It is definitely a high risk, high short term reward game he is playing.

But take solace in that either he will lose by getting caught (he WILL slip up one day) or that he wont know jack for the boards.

His punishment is not worth waiting to see, it will come. The best thing you can do is ignore him. You are much better of on your path, because you will be that much more prepared for a successful career in the real world.

 

[kaos]

Don't worry, his comeuppance is coming soon to a board exam near you!

 

[Caffeinated]

Originally posted by YaFwiendToluene
Yea, I feel your pain guy. Some of the neoucom students in my class cheat ALL THE TIME. They cheat in their chemistry classes. If you encounter someone like that in the future....change your seating. Cheating IS dishonest...it is UNACCEPTABLE....but what can you do about it?...like we used to say when we were little kids...Cheaters never win and A cheater will never prosper...and this maggot you mentioned that got into medical school will find himself in a bad position one day in medical school with his cheating habits. Don't worry, just keep working hard as you have been, you've got nothing to worry about.

Cya

These cheating NEOUCOM students you referred to--are they the undergrads or the med students? At first, I was surprised to hear this, because I thought the NEOUCOM students were the braniacs. After all, most of them are accepted at age 18. But then again, I can see where the pressure placed on them is greater than the maturity that some of them possess. But it's disappointing to hear about the cheaters. If these people are the future of medicine, I hope I never get sick!

 

[nina512]

From what I know, most of the cheating goes on in undergrad. In line with what others have said...med school is a different ball game. CHeating doesn't help when you have to retain everything for board exams.

 

[DrMom]

I personally can't imagine risking my chance at a career in medicine by cheating.

 

[doepug]

I believe that cheaters should be expelled. No exceptions.

In college, I was a TA for two large biology courses, and we caught people cheating on every exam. It was my pleasure to turn them in. Before handing back exams, the TAs would photocopy all of the pages of each exam... then, whenever an exam was turned in for a "regrade," the test would be compared to the original. We busted so many pre-meds this way. My undergrad institution has a policy that evidence of cheating results in an F in a course, with no opportunity to retake that course. In other words, a pre-med would no longer be pre-med.

Anyone who cannot take responsibility for their actions (and something as trivial as an exam grade) cannot be trusted.

If anyone reading this finds someone cheating, I hope you will nail them.

doepug

 

[eurotrash]

Originally posted by doepug
I believe that cheaters should be expelled. No exceptions.

In college, I was a TA for two large biology courses, and we caught people cheating on every exam. It was my pleasure to turn them in. ....My undergrad institution has a policy that evidence of cheating results in an F in a course, with no opportunity to retake that course. In other words, a pre-med would no longer be pre-med.


doepug

wow you are such an unbelievable dingus to do tha tto people

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by eurotrash
wow you are such an unbelievable dingus to do tha tto people

I for one think they deserve it if there is almost certain knowledge and proof of cheating.

 

[doepug]

Originally posted by eurotrash
wow you are such an unbelievable dingus to do tha tto people

You mean a little cheating from time to time is ok? Do you think a slap on the wrist would stop someone from cheating again? It's intolerable. You should thank people who preserve the integrity of your hard work.

doepug

 

[Kovox]

Originally posted by doepug
I believe that cheaters should be expelled. No exceptions.

In college, I was a TA for two large biology courses, and we caught people cheating on every exam. It was my pleasure to turn them in.

Anyone who cannot take responsibility for their actions (and something as trivial as an exam grade) cannot be trusted.

That is very harsh. People are not perfect, they make mistakes, that is why there are second chances. If the student , however, did it again, I would then recommend him be expelled. Those students in your science classes, under your guide, will be your colleague someday, for someone to lose all trust in a person over one mistake is just not right.

Give people the benefit of the doubt, for without second chances, there wouldn't be such a word as "change."

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by eurotrash
wow you are such an unbelievable dingus to do tha tto people

Guess we know who cheats 'round here...

When I was taking undergrad Chem, two guys were caught cheating on the computer quizzes. They got explelled.

At my interview at Ohio State, one of my questions was, 'what would you do if you were taking a test in med school, and you realized the person sitting next to you was cheating?' I answered something like: "to tell the truth, probably nothing. It would create so many issues about my credibility with my classmates, plus I would agonize over whether what I had seen really was what it appeared to be. There are internal checks and balances to weed out people like that anyway, because you can't cheat on the big stuff, like MCATs or boards." They looked at me all astonished and said, "yes but the Honor Code at OSU requires reporting of all such infractions. Haven't you read our Honor Code?" You never saw anyone back pedaling so fast.... "Oh, well, yeah! I mean, in THAT case, well sure!! Of course I'd report them! Heck, I'd do a citizen's arrest!!" I think they thought my attempts to recover were so funny that they just let it slide .

 

[Neuronix]

At URochester one of my interviewers asked me what I would do if one of my PBL mates had a huge pot habit. I told him nothing, unless it was interfering with his work or his life and that I thought what he did in private was his private business.

Post-interview rejection.

 

[doepug]

Originally posted by Kovox
That is very harsh. People are not perfect, they make mistakes, that is why there are second chances. If the student , however, did it again, I would then recommend him be expelled. Those students in your science classes, under your guide, will be your colleague someday, for someone to lose all trust in a person over one mistake is just not right.

Give people the benefit of the doubt, for without second chances, there wouldn't be such a word as "change."

I guess what really bugs me is that people don't accidentally cheat. It's a conscious decision, done quite intentionally, especially when someone changes answers on an exam that has been returned and hands it in again.

What is truly scary is when the cheater becomes your colleague, there are several situations where trust and integrity really, really matter. Med students learn very quickly that the worst thing you can do on the wards is lie to your colleagues. Even if you screw up royally, it is worse to lie than to 'fess up. Lying to housestaff or an attending is grounds for expulsion at any medical school. As a physician, there are times when you will place your career, your future, your family's future, and your patient's future in the hands of someone else.

There is no shortage of smart people who want to be doctors. Someone who acts fraudulently as an adult is not cut out to be a physician.

doepug

 

[Raptor]

Originally posted by doepug
I believe that cheaters should be expelled. No exceptions.

In college, I was a TA for two large biology courses, and we caught people cheating on every exam. It was my pleasure to turn them in. Before handing back exams, the TAs would photocopy all of the pages of each exam... then, whenever an exam was turned in for a "regrade," the test would be compared to the original. We busted so many pre-meds this way. My undergrad institution has a policy that evidence of cheating results in an F in a course, with no opportunity to retake that course. In other words, a pre-med would no longer be pre-med.

Anyone who cannot take responsibility for their actions (and something as trivial as an exam grade) cannot be trusted.

If anyone reading this finds someone cheating, I hope you will nail them.

doepug

That is cold...You remind me of the Traffic Cop that writes tickets to Ambulance Trucks for parking in a no parking zone... you are cold. Sometimes people get overwhelmed with a lot of things and need some kind of "help." Sometimes they are so stressed that they can't realize the consequences. I think that you should give them a second chance.

 

[doepug]

Originally posted by Raptor
That is cold...You remind me of the Traffic Cop that writes tickets to Ambulance Trucks for parking in a no parking zone... you are cold. Sometimes people get overwhelmed with a lot of things and need some kind of "help." Sometimes they are so stressed that they can't realize the consequences. I think that you should give them a second chance.

I agree that there are times when students need help in a serious way. However, committing fraud is inexcusable for someone who wants to be a doctor. Ambulances don't commit fraud.

Honestly, would you want a physician who is "so stressed that they can't realize the consequences"?

All adults - especially aspiring physicians - need to take full responsibility for what they do. Save your compassion for your patients; there's no room for it on this front.

doepug

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by Raptor
That is cold...You remind me of the Traffic Cop that writes tickets to Ambulance Trucks for parking in a no parking zone... you are cold. Sometimes people get overwhelmed with a lot of things and need some kind of "help." Sometimes they are so stressed that they can't realize the consequences. I think that you should give them a second chance.

I guess my thought is, childhood is the time to learn lessons about honesty and integrity - that's when you get to stumble and get back up again. Once you're an adult - it's for real now. If you do the crime, you gotta do the time.

If you're willing to cheat on a college examination, I'd bet you're willing to falsify prescriptions or medical records. There's not too much difference in those two scenarios.

What do you guys think?

 

[Gleevec]

Im surprised so many people are opposed to punishments for cheating.

While there are varying degrees of cheating (using someones lab results when your expt failed in analytical chem vs. cheating on a test), if you are willing to accept the benefits of cheating (higher scores) you better be willing to accept the consequences (expulsion).

If people are so "overworked" that they are cheating in undergrad, they will be more overworked in med school and residency. So then they will just cheat more.

I guess none of you who support lenient cheating policies owned any stock in Enron, because by your own standards those cons should be given a second chance.

As said before, no one cheats "accidentally". And I dont know of anyone who cheats "just once". Once cheaters realize they wont get caught or wont be punished, they continue to do so. Why work hard when you can just get drunk and copy off someone else?

So while there are varying degrees of cheating and varying certainties, I think in cases where there is clear pre-meditated cheating, and evidence to the fact, those students should get expelled. Getting an F in the class is the least teachers can do to support a truly honest academic setting.

 

[Raptor]

I agree with the above poster. And doepug I was using the ambulance truck as a metaphor. But I do agree with what you are saying. I hope that doesn't happen to me because quite frankly i don't like cheaters. I had students last semester in Genetics that would copy my papers and get an A off of me. I regret it though.

 

[Neuronix]

On a related note, there was once a physics professor at UDel (my ugrad) who had the same strategy as doepug. He would photocopy exams and then compare them when a student would hand them an exam for regrade.

One time he caught a student and turned that student in. When it came before the committee, the student said that the professor did not have the student's permission to copy their exam. The committee sided with the student, cited the professor, and the student got away scot free. That professor is now employed at another institution.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by Neuronix
On a related note, there was once a physics professor at UDel (my ugrad) who had the same strategy as doepug. He would photocopy exams and then compare them when a student would hand them an exam for regrade.

One time he caught a student and turned that student in. When it came before the committee, the student said that the professor did not have the student's permission to copy their exam. The committee sided with the student, cited the professor, and the student got away scot free. That professor is now employed at another institution.

What a ******ed committee.

 

[dr kevin40]

what's the big deal if someone cheats. as long as u don't and can get good grades/scores, y u gotta hate?

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by dr kevin40
what's the big deal if someone cheats. as long as u don't and can get good grades/scores, y u gotta hate?

usually premed classes are graded on a curve, so their cheating 'A' may result in your honest 'B'.

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

Before I start (I'm graduating from medical school this spring), let me say that it is always to your benefit to understand information so that you can offer the best treatment to your patients. There will be times where you will have no one to turn to but yourself, and when someone's life is in your hands... well, you get the point.

Here's my question: most people would agree that looking off of someone's test is cheating, correct? How about sneaking notes into a test? Yup, most of us agree, not a good idea. But how different is this from taking copies of old tests (like many frats and sororities do), pass them around to only certain people (a.k.a., not all people taking the test would have access) and memorizing questions that appear word-for-word on the test? Granted, if professors pass the tests back and allow people to keep them, it's not exactly forbidden information, however, is a genuine and thorough understanding of the tested knowledge obtained by memorizing old tests? Never been clear to me as to why this is usually seen as much different than cheating.

Just a thought....
-F.C.

 

[Entei]

I gotta agree with Dr. Kevin on this one.

What's so wrong with a B anyway? You can't say that it would ruin someone's chances of getting into med school. SDN is full of posts by people who get Bs and Cs and who still got into med school. Once you're in med school, you'll have to, at times, learn to "settle" for Bs anyway unless you want to be a gunner with no social skills. If As are really that important to you, then you should focus on YOURSELF and study harder, and not blame your (perceived) poor grades on whether or not other people are cheating. I'm not sympathizing with people who cheat, but I think that in college people, especially freshmen, are still maturing. They should be given a second chance if they make a mistake. It'll all even out in the end, anyway, whether on the MCATs or the boards or in interviews.

 

[woolie]

Hey! This is a great thread - I went to bed tired and beat and now look at everyones' comments. That's what makes this site so great

I agree with DoePug and think her institution is right to really come down hard especially on premeds. I understand we all get really stressed and mental but being a Dr means alot more than being good at science courses; it really does include the maturity and emotional component because it's people and life and death and we need to have deep trust of our colleagues and the people around us - as a patient or a doctor.

The thinking that says: it's ok to rip someone else's work off is completely in another ballgame altogether. This guy didn't try and just sneak random answers from my orgo notebook like a boiling point or something but he wanted to copy my ENTIRE pre-lab for GenChem which took me about 4-6 hours to really get done right. Yea, he said, I never do those before class. I still fume with anger when I think about his lack of comprehension.

That's why I was so stunned that thinking like that got him actually into a good state school. Just so you'all know, this guy is about 38 or even 39 so it's not like he was a 19 year old freshman who didn't know any better. He even worked in a hospital so go figure ...

 

[mstp_boy]

i don't like cheaters either, but i do believe in doing everything you possibly can to pass a test, *within the rules*. I think that digging up old tests, and going the extra mile to figure out what's going to be on the test isn't cheating.

No doubt, I think copying from another student during the test, changing your answers afterwards, etc. deserves punishment. And by not reporting cheating, you're actually doing a disservice to the cheater.

To those who say "the boards will catch cheaters in the end" - not likely. Most students in med school study pretty hard, cheaters or not. And the board questions aren't quite like the random test questions you get in class. Cheating can give you the extra edge to do well on an exam.

Some of the questions in class exams are so improbable/random/strange, it isn't surprising the some people turn to cheating. When others see their classmates cheating, they're pressured to join the bandwagon. In the end, would you rather be in the 50% of the class who used notecards, or the other half? That's what it comes down to.

 

[AlternateSome1]

I don't even understand how someone can call it "hating" to be opposed to practices which go against the policy of the school, the learning process, and hurt every other person in the classroom. The whole point in being in school is to learn the information presented and to better yourself. If you don't want to do so, what is the big deal if you are kicked out?

~AS1~

 

[Gleevec]

I think a good tentative definition of cheating is that you wouldnt be willing to tell your professor/friends/advisors that you are doing it.

I do care if people cheat and bring down the curve because its not the grade they should have.

Many here seem to think that cheaters should get all the benefit (higher grades) without punishment (expulsion, F, etc). This is bullcrap. If they want to play that game, they better be willing to lose.

So the best anyone can do is to not facilitate cheating. I dont think everyone needs to tattle (but if you want to anonymously, more power to you), but people shouldnt partake in it and feel clean because they didnt benefit from it. They will have just screwed someone else. In the zero sum game of college grades, someone will always get hurt by the curve.

 

[DrQuinn]

Just so you know, one classmate of mine admitted to me he cheated on Step I of the boards.

Made my blood boil!

 

[latinfridley]

I agree with doepug. You have to be an immature a** to begin with to cheat. You learn not to cheat in mid and high school. Now you're in college for gods sake. Take some friggin responsibility for your actions. Cheating policies are outlined at the begining of every class you take, so if u do actually cheat it isnt with the knowledge that you didnt know the consequences. I think if you cheat u fail, that simple.

 

[sunlover]

Cheating absolutely infuriates those of us who put the work into learning the material, especially when those cheaters end up benefitting from the curve. I agree with schools that expell or fail you if you're caught; they have to have stringent punishments because its getting out of hand. I am amazed and disgusted at all the posts that defend cheating and try to write it off as acceptable, okay, or not that big a deal. If you're so intent on going to medical school that you're willing to cheat, how much lower would you stoop to get accepted? If you cheat in school, you'll find ways to cheat as a doctor if you ever make it that far. And you won't know your stuff, since you'll have cheated to learn it. God help your patients!

 

[Zoobaby]

Originally posted by sunlover
I am amazed and disgusted at all the posts that defend cheating and try to write it off as acceptable, okay, or not that big a deal. If you're so intent on going to medical school that you're willing to cheat, how much lower would you stoop to get accepted? If you cheat in school, you'll find ways to cheat as a doctor if you ever make it that far. And you won't know your stuff, since you'll have cheated to learn it. God help your patients!

I totally agree. If you have to cheat you are weak, too weak to be a doctor.

If there is just not enough time in the day to study and get all A's, then you may have to take a B or *ghasp* a C every once in a while. Accepting this fact is part of being a mature, responsible and HONEST student. If you work your tail off all the time and still can't pass, well, then you're not cut out to be a doctor. Not everyone is, and there's no shame in that. There is, however, plenty of shame in cheating to get to a position that you don't deserve.

I cant believe how flaccid so many people are on this issue. Makes me sick.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by koma
I think attaching such a moral value on cheating is a bit excessive. "If you cheat - you are a bad bad person. If you tattle on a cheater, more power to you. " Etc. I would agree that cheating was immoral if we had a good honest system by which we could judge a person's ability to be a doctor. As of now, the system is not perfect. If you have to take some bull**** class to pass some bull**** requirement in order to graduate, and you choose to cheat, that's your decision. I can't judge this decision on a moral level. Seeing "cheating" as immoral is only justified if you see the "system" as just and fair. People get so carried away by being inside the whole premed game and following the rules, they sometimes forget about the bigger picture. Not everything is Important. Not everything is worth pouring your blood and sweat into. You should choose things that you truly want to put effort in and do Right, and let the rest of it slide, if you can. If you need to take environmental science to for your major, and the teacher sucks, and you choose to use one of your old papers or whatever, who cares.

I don't think I could report a cheater unless I was really really annoyed by their attitude. If you cheat, you're either struggling and in denial - in which case I feel sorry for you, or you just want to jump through the hoop effortlessly, and are aware of the consequences.

I dont even know where to begin addressing your lame arguments koma:

1. Grades dont judge ability to be a doctor, they judge your ability to handle the work that leads to becoming a doctor. Either way, it makes no sense for you to talk about cheating in a bad system being good or even morally neutral. Two wrongs dont make a right (ie cheating in what you view as a bad system doesnt make you right). It is NOT better to lie in an imperfect system than to be honest in an imperfect system.

2. Yes if you decide to cheat in a class it is your decision. And you should be held accountable to your decision. If you are going to accept the benefits of cheating (higher grades with less work) you darn well better be able to accept the consequences (getting an F, getting kicked out of school).

3. So by your logic, if I dont like my med school anatomy class because the teacher isnt that great, I can cheat in it because I think its a bullcrap requirement. What you call a bullcrap requirement others might consider integral to their education, and you are screwing their curve as well. I guess if I dont like med school anatomy I can cheat and not worry that I will become a ***** unqualified to treat patients.

4. Not everything is worth putting your blood and sweat into? Give me a break. If its not worth putting any effort into, just take the B or C and live with it. You are just trying to fool everyone else into thinking you are smart when you cheat, so you deserve for your bubble to get burst once you get caught.

5. I agree that if you are cheating, you are probably both stupid and lazy. But all med schools see is the transcript. They dont know youre stupid and lazy til you matriculate, by which point the cheater has already won. They already got the grade, however illegitimately.

6. No matter which way you cut it, cheaters tend to be the idiots in your class that cant admit they cant handle the work. But the fact that they are dishonest as well is going to appear repeatedly in their careers. Most people dont cheat once or twice and then are done with it. Once they realize its an easy way to do better, they because habitual cheaters. To think that they will quit cheating in med school or quit in residency or quit in practice is naive and stupid. If they cant handle the work without cheating as an undergrad, they sure as heck wont last in med school without cheating later.

 

[Gleevec]

hmm server glitch?

 

[woolie]

"There is, however, a big difference between helping your classmates -- or being helped -- and academic dishonesty. Fortunately this has never been a problem in our program, and, to ensure that things remain this way, we point out that any postbaccalaureate student caught cheating will be dropped from the program, will not be re-admitted to the College and will not receive any letter of recommendation from our office. "

Here's a direct quote from the Postbacc program at NYU about cheating ... that's pretty clear to me!

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by woolie
"There is, however, a big difference between helping your classmates -- or being helped -- and academic dishonesty. Fortunately this has never been a problem in our program, and, to ensure that things remain this way, we point out that any postbaccalaureate student caught cheating will be dropped from the program, will not be re-admitted to the College and will not receive any letter of recommendation from our office. "

Here's a direct quote from the Postbacc program at NYU about cheating ... that's pretty clear to me!

Sounds reasonable to me. At least in med school (and law school, for that matter), you're training to be a professional. If you cheat, you don't deserve to be a professional. Applications account for this. If you lie on one, you're going to get booted and there will be professional consequences.