Dayton VA Podiatric residency

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Dry Risk

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The 1st year is basically all clinic and ZERO surgery. Even the emergent cases that come in are prepared by the 1st years and handed off to the second years. In 2nd year you will finish all your numbers by traveling to outside affiliates. You will get your pediatric numbers from the nearby air force base which is a 2 week rotation (to cover 3 years)with pediatric MD/DO residents. Most patients are there for constipation purposes.You will only finish your required numbers and then 3rd year you are back in clinic all day every day. You are 1st on call as a first year for 2 weeks. You will have a 2nd on call resident but the entire load falls on the 1st call. The outside attendings barely let you participate in the cases and will not allow you to do notes. Most graduates have basic understanding of even suturing.The attendings there are toxic and have a habit of not working with certain residents. All the attendings in that VA with one exception will only do surgery once a year to keep their license. Friday academics is a joke. Journal club is online watching ACFAS videos.

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there is a thread for residency posts that i think this should go into!

that being said seems up to par with pretty much every VA program
 
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simon cowell facepalm GIF
 
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Yes... Forum Members - PMSR/RRA Residency Reviews


Yeah... and many other pod residency programs. Night and day differences. It's too bad.

We should increase approved resident spots at them to accommodate the added upcoming UT and LECOM grads? :unsure:


:(
Not to mention the quality of applicants is much worse than prior. Almost like making school unaffordable with a poor ROI and job market discourages students from applying.
 
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This is common knowledge that most lower end podiatry residencies are basically inadequate... too much clinic, far too little surgery, bogus logging, too few good attendings and acadmics, and a recipe to fail boards. That sets people up to do nothing but wound care and C&C menial work that you could do without residency in most states. Big waste. It will be very dangerous to scramble in coming years once newest schools are pumping grads out.

However, you guys would honestly be surprised how many good or average podiatry training programs also have pgy1s do little besides inpatient rounds, "research," and run the clinics. There are only so many attendings, so many surgery cases, and so many residents they can scrub in on each case. They have to send most of the residents elsewhere to keep them busy - especially in months when they may have clerks they want to get into the OR. Even at some higher end podiatry programs, pgy1s basically just do the I&D slop work and second or third scrub anything recon or trauma. It's unfortunate but true.

Meanwhile, ortho pgy2s can bang out ankle fractures or radius fractures, pgy2 gen surg can do breast surgery or hernias and most other basics (to them) stuff fast and well... and they can also manage ICU patients. They even make weekly and daily academics between OR work. Hmm.

There are some very good and some very underrated DPM residencies where you will be legit busy from day 1 of pgy1.
Clerk and check out some of the Detroit and Kentucky or Texas programs and find out for yourself.
It is is imperative, in podiatry, that one maxes out clerkships and visits and creates good options. It's critical to get best training, skills, job options, and best ROI for tuition that's possible.
  • "Students don't scrub in" = bad ... "We're outta residents since there are so many cases on the board today, so extern Bob is going to go do hammertoes with the attending" = good.
  • "Required research" and "putting together a PowerPoint for Dr. B" = make the attending famous ... XR and M&M and organized academics = good pearls from seniors and attendings, good board prep.
  • Rounding in groups of 4 and 6 and then rounding again with attending = uh huh ... Rounding resident solo or resident + student = legit busy.
  • Pgy1s and even students doing surgery or parts of it = good ... pgy1s nowhere to be found except in the library, 4th assist doing nothing, or looking ragged from hospital rounds or C&C clinic = danger, Will Robinson.
  • Pgy3s taking common cases because they need to learn = bad ... Pgy3s mainly teaching juniors and taking only rare/toughest cases = the way it should be.

There really is a huge lack of cases and good attendings in nearly all DPM residencies compared to MD/DO. It's sad but true. Even our elite programs mostly have issues (because CPME always pushes them to add spots due too added grads, which dilutes training). Most DPM programs also lack academics and teaching hospital sponsor, and we wonder why our ABFAS board pass rates are bad. Worst, now we are taking surgical cases out of residencies to put them in candy azz fellowships since pgy3s haven't had enough reps, lack enough real exp, and job market demand for them is low... basically just creating a 4th year of residency elsewhere. But hey, let's open some new schools. :)
 
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The problems with this program have been ongoing for years. A classmate went there and was frustrated by the weak surgical training. The weakest student to ever graduate DMU went here and lost their license while in residency. There was another horrible story I was told that was so weird I struggle to believe it but it seemed to be something to the effect that the program took on a student with a criminal record that shouldn't have been possible at a VA.

I was told this program just wants bodies.

Its interesting to me how programs fly under the radar. I'm not sure if its because no one wants to shame them or maybe they just aren't having many student visitors and pick residents up in the scramble.
 
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It’s pretty bad and likely CPME should investigate
 
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It’s pretty bad and likely CPME should investigate
As they should. I can only imagine your frustration. Proper training is important in our profession.

What are your thoughts or plans regarding this?
 
Sad to hear that. I am probably one of the very few KSUCPM people who loved rotating at the VA, but then again I was up at the Cleveland VA and one of the other nearby CBOCs. Goes to show you the variability of training among programs.
 
True i agree i think the UT and lecom additions will lead to many podiatry grads to have nothing at the end of the tunnel. The sad part of podiatry is that the old generation very often tends to try and devour the young. Many attendings refuse to work and train their own residents. Without adequate training our field will not be represented adequately in already dangerously competitive medical world.
 
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True i agree i think the UT and lecom additions will lead to many podiatry grads to have nothing at the end of the tunnel. The sad part of podiatry is that the old very often eat the young. Many attendings refuse to work and train their own residents. Without adequate training our field will not be represented adequately in already dangerously competitive medical world.

Writing a program review and posting it in the thread mentioned above is probably best. Thanks.
 
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The 1st year is basically all clinic and ZERO surgery. Even the emergent cases that come in are prepared by the 1st years and handed off to the second years. In 2nd year you will finish all your numbers by traveling to outside affiliates. You will get your pediatric numbers from the nearby air force base which is a 2 week rotation (to cover 3 years)with pediatric MD/DO residents. Most patients are there for constipation purposes.You will only finish your required numbers and then 3rd year you are back in clinic all day every day. You are 1st on call as a first year for 2 weeks. You will have a 2nd on call resident but the entire load falls on the 1st call. The outside attendings barely let you participate in the cases and will not allow you to do notes. Most graduates have basic understanding of even suturing.The attendings there are toxic and have a habit of not working with certain residents. All the attendings in that VA with one exception will only do surgery once a year to keep their license. Friday academics is a joke. Journal club is online watching ACFAS videos.
You seem pretty insightful with this program, did you graduate residency there? A past extern?
 
I’d like to not reveal my identity. I just want to be insightful for future cohorts.

That's fair. I've heard the surgery months aren't as bad as you mention, as I know residents there that have scrubbed in for total ankle replacements.
 
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That's fair. I've heard the surgery months aren't as bad as you mention, as I know residents there that have scrubbed in for total ankle replacements.
If they give all the dirty cases to the second year I can guarantee they aren’t surgically strong enough to do anything except retract for a total joint. Sounds like a terrible program . There are plenty of programs who go skin to skin on totals but it’s because they have EXTENSIVE surgical training with strong hand skills. A place that doesn’t hand you the blade on day 1 like this program is just using you for cheap labor.

This is common knowledge that most lower end podiatry residencies are basically inadequate... too much clinic, far too little surgery, bogus logging, too few good attendings and acadmics, and a recipe to fail boards. That sets people up to do nothing but wound care and C&C menial work that you could do without residency in most states. Big waste. It will be very dangerous to scramble in coming years once newest schools are pumping grads out.

However, you guys would honestly be surprised how many good or average podiatry training programs also have pgy1s do little besides inpatient rounds, "research," and run the clinics. There are only so many attendings, so many surgery cases, and so many residents they can scrub in on each case. They have to send most of the residents elsewhere to keep them busy - especially in months when they may have clerks they want to get into the OR. Even at some higher end podiatry programs, pgy1s basically just do the I&D slop work and second or third scrub anything recon or trauma. It's unfortunate but true.

Meanwhile, ortho pgy2s can bang out ankle fractures or radius fractures, pgy2 gen surg can do breast surgery or hernias and most other basics (to them) stuff fast and well... and they can also manage ICU patients. They even make weekly and daily academics between OR work. Hmm.

There are some very good and some very underrated DPM residencies where you will be legit busy from day 1 of pgy1.
Clerk and check out some of the Detroit and Kentucky or Texas programs and find out for yourself.
It is is imperative, in podiatry, that one maxes out clerkships and visits and creates good options. It's critical to get best training, skills, job options, and best ROI for tuition that's possible.
  • "Students don't scrub in" = bad ... "We're outta residents since there are so many cases on the board today, so extern Bob is going to go do hammertoes with the attending" = good.
  • "Required research" and "putting together a PowerPoint for Dr. B" = make the attending famous ... XR and M&M and organized academics = good pearls from seniors and attendings, good board prep.
  • Rounding in groups of 4 and 6 and then rounding again with attending = uh huh ... Rounding resident solo or resident + student = legit busy.
  • Pgy1s and even students doing surgery or parts of it = good ... pgy1s nowhere to be found except in the library, 4th assist doing nothing, or looking ragged from hospital rounds or C&C clinic = danger, Will Robinson.
  • Pgy3s taking common cases because they need to learn = bad ... Pgy3s mainly teaching juniors and taking only rare/toughest cases = the way it should be.

There really is a huge lack of cases and good attendings in nearly all DPM residencies compared to MD/DO. It's sad but true. Even our elite programs mostly have issues (because CPME always pushes them to add spots due too added grads, which dilutes training). Most DPM programs also lack academics and teaching hospital sponsor, and we wonder why our ABFAS board pass rates are bad. Worst, now we are taking surgical cases out of residencies to put them in candy azz fellowships since pgy3s haven't had enough reps, lack enough real exp, and job market demand for them is low... basically just creating a 4th year of residency elsewhere. But hey, let's open some new schools. :)
Feli’s advice is what students should use as a framework for picking and ranking externships.
 
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That's fair. I've heard the surgery months aren't as bad as you mention, as I know residents there that have scrubbed in for total ankle replacements.

Those cases are completely hands off except for retracting. Tbh I enjoyed the 3 years because I had no interest in surgery and am now non-surgical only.

I did maybe 12 surgery cases from skin to skin in the 3 years. I also showed no interest so maybe attendings let other residents do more.

Are the VA attendings more interested in collecting paychecls than being academic superstars? Yes, I would be too working at a VA.

I think the wound care training can be very good at this program if someone puts in the effort and there are good sides to ordering whatever you want without worrying about patient costs.

The biggest downside IMO is the extreme negativity in clinic. If you know you know, I don't want to make it too personal because I was given a chance and treated fairly and would attend the same program again if I went back in time.
 
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Those cases are completely hands off except for retracting. Tbh I enjoyed the 3 years because I had no interest in surgery and am now non-surgical only.

I did maybe 12 surgery cases from skin to skin in the 3 years. I also showed no interest so maybe attendings let other residents do more.

Are the VA attendings more interested in collecting paychecls than being academic superstars? Yes, I would be too working at a VA.

I think the wound care training can be very good at this program if someone puts in the effort and there are good sides to ordering whatever you want without worrying about patient costs.

The biggest downside IMO is the extreme negativity in clinic. If you know you know, I don't want to make it too personal because I was given a chance and treated fairly and would attend the same program again if I went back in time.

Does opting to do non-surgical work lower your income at all?

My biggest qualm with surgery is that i don't know how necessary it is for the paycheck. Will it prevent you from getting 200k or 300k jobs?

The only VA I was in during school was rotations was absolutely horrendous. I would legit rather be a janitor than put up with that place.
 
Does opting to do non-surgical work lower your income at all?...
Statistically, yes.
Every single time? Perhaps not.
Some people do fine or even beat the avg DPM income doing house calls, just basic office and wound care, whatever (if they're owner). There are rare non-surgical or "surgical" ABFAS-fail wound wizards who have probably found a hospital job that pays MGMA or VA job that pays somewhat close, but the lions's share of those jobs will be closed to non-op (and heavily applied to even by other surgical DPMs).

In any major DPM income study (ACFAS, APMA, PM, etc), its result are income non-op < surgical < RRA surgical (and obviously owner > non, board cert > non, hospital employ > pod employ, etc).

Basically, think of it this way:
There are more and more DPMs every year with about 600+ pods coming out annually, most of whom are surgical - many legit or aiming to be highly surgical. It's crazy to give places any reason to NOT hire or work with you, send to you.
If DPM #1 does full scope and DPM #2 does limited non-op scope...
Why would anyone hire or send to DPM #2?

(few will... basically only if DPM #2 was significantly cheaper or full scope DPM #1 was very unlikable or looong waitlist)

Podiatry is already a very limited scope with much competition for jobs, patients, refers.
Some of the competition is from ortho or midlevels, but most is just from a TON of other podiatrists.
Hospitals want surgery. That and advanced imaging and PT refers make them $$$. But surgery is typically the main thing.
It is almost always wise to offer as many podiatry services as possible (sports, recon, RFC/derm, wounds, trauma, peds, etc)... make it EASY for docs to refer. This is why doing a crummy residency is generally ill-advised. You can always choose to go from doing calc fx and cavus recons back to just bunions and basics... the converse is obviously NOT true.
 
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Does opting to do non-surgical work lower your income at all?

My biggest qualm with surgery is that i don't know how necessary it is for the paycheck. Will it prevent you from getting 200k or 300k jobs?

The only VA I was in during school was rotations was absolutely horrendous. I would legit rather be a janitor than put up with that place.

I encourage everyone to gain as many skills as possible. You should do your best to learn as much and be as good as possible at surgery. You will never be limited by having more skills. It definitely limits my job and earning potential by not doing surgery.
 
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I encourage everyone to gain as many skills as possible. You should do your best to learn as much and be as good as possible at surgery. You will never be limited by having more skills. It definitely limits my job and earning potential by not doing surgery.
Did you finish residency within the last 5 years, last 10 years? The program might have changed since then if its been a while.
 
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