Georgetown SMP

[cHocoBo 118]

Can anyone that is in or has gone through the georgetown special masters program give me insight on the difficulty of the courses. thanks

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[bruinrab]

Hey,

I did the program last year, I guess none of the other grads have have seen this yet, so I'll give you my opinions.

We took six classes with the med students: embryology; microscopic anatomy (histo); physiology; endocrinology; biostats/epidemiology; and intro to neuroscience.

We also had four grad school courses: intro to microbio and immunology; cell and molecular physio (biochemistry); biomed career pathways; and integrative physio. We also had a library research paper (like a review article).

There's more scheduling info here: http://smp.georgetown.edu/courseinfo.htm

And more course descriptions here:http://smp.georgetown.edu/coursedesc.htm

From a student perspective, it's not that tough to do "ok" in any of the courses. You have to slack off to not get B's in every course. That said, getting above a B is tough.

We don't have an anatomy course, so that is somewhat of a disadvantage in embryo and neuro. For embryo, I think the med students get a perspective that just helps them understand what 's happening better -- they see the end result (my big hints for embryo are to get Langman's book and to get play-dough and use it to understand the morphological changes -- of course, I realized how helpful this would be after the course was over ). For neuro, the med students already had a good understanding of the gross anatomy, and they had already learned a lot about the cranial nerves, so while they concentrated on learning new stuff, most of us were stuck on the basics for a while. They've tried to give "enrichment" courses before neuro begins, but that hasn't been particularly useful, at least not how they had been doing it before. They're trying something new this year, so we'll have to see if that helps level the playing field.

Other than that, your big sibs (former physios who are now med students) will have a lot of info on how to study. Everything is doable, but you have to study a lot more than you did in college. The toughest part is learning how to study and then getting the self-discipline part down. These are med school level courses, and the program directors will do anything they can to help "massage" the process. But they can't study for you.

 

[bruinrab]

Oh, one last thing. Obviously, the higher your grades in the program, the easier it will be to get into med school. However, even if you're just getting B's, you have achieved the basic goal of the program -- showing that you are capable of medical school-level work at a competitive school. That alone makes you a good applicant because despite of what may have happened in the past, the adcoms have proof that you will be able to handle what they throw at you once you're in. You're showing that you're not a risk for flunking out, which is the risk that adcoms take even with the 4.0, 40 applicants who have only taken undergrad level coursework. Of course, you still have to convince adcoms why they should take you, but you've taken away their biggest reason for NOT accepting you, their fear that you won't be able to handle the work)and "waste" a spot.

 

[Poetess232]

I saw on the website that tuition for the program (for one year) is about $24,000. They also stated that scholoarships are not available.

Did most students just take out loans for the total cost?

The site also said that working is not encouraged. How much would you estimate would be needed to cover costs for room and board?

 

[Quimby2]

I attended 4 years ago. At the time, no scholarships were available and living in DC is expensive (less than NYC, more than SF). I was able to support myself 100% on student loans while living comfortably (2 roommates, eating out often). There is no way to hold a job during this time. Do NOT even try it -the risk of doing poorly is too high; with bad consequences finnacially if you do not succeed.

Now that I am finishing up med school, I have quite a debt -over 200k. Seems like quite a but; however, it IS very payable. (it's about one years salary; no big deal).

Money should not be too much of an issue. The problem would be if you do not get into Med School, then your stuck with 50k in loans. Ouch!

But, never fear...were there's a will, there's a way.

 

[RazT]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if my stats are doable for Georgetown's SMP...
I have a 3.2 cumlative, 3.1 science, mcat is 29 (10 bio 10 verbal 9 ps)...thanks!

 

[DrJD]

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if my stats are doable for Georgetown's SMP...
I have a 3.2 cumlative, 3.1 science, mcat is 29 (10 bio 10 verbal 9 ps)...thanks!

Yes given last years averages it is "doable", but I would make sure you apply early. I think applications open up in December or January and make sure yours is in really early and I think you'll have a pretty good chance!

 

[not so calm now]

Do most people go into this program already having good ECs? From what I can tell, it seems like your time is best spent studying if you have enough volunteering and research to make yourself competitive.

 

[DrJD]

Do most people go into this program already having good ECs? From what I can tell, it seems like your time is best spent studying if you have enough volunteering and research to make yourself competitive.

Most people in the program have already done enough EC's to get in, it is normally their GPA that needs work. There are opportunities to some volunteer work while in the program. We have a class official who is in charge of organizing volunteer activities. However, you want to come into the program with the MCAT already taken, EC's already done so that all you have to do is study for the program. It is a last chance program so you want to be able to do your absolute best.

 

[chucktown]

I was doing some internet detective work and found that many of the G'town SMP students are from top 10 universities...do the SMP adcoms weigh a 3.3 from a top ten the same as a 3.3 from a lesser known state school? would not going to a top tier undergrad put me at a disadvantage?

 

[DrJD]

I was doing some internet detective work and found that many of the G'town SMP students are from top 10 universities...do the SMP adcoms weigh a 3.3 from a top ten the same as a 3.3 from a lesser known state school? would not going to a top tier undergrad put me at a disadvantage?

It seems to me that once you are in the SMP where you went to undergrad matters a lot less... Some Jesuit schools just like to see that you are now a student of a Jesuit school (SLU, Creighton, etc.) And big names see that you are now at a big name.

I wouldn't worry about what your undergrad was at this point, people in this program do well and go on to medical school regardless of their alma mater.

 

[Doctormo24]

hey DrJD
i'll be taking the 3/28 MCAT and wont get my scores back til the end of April.
I think i know the answer to this as being yes but just wanted to confirm, should I send in the rest of my materials ASAP and just have the mcat score pending ?

 

[DrJD]

hey DrJD
i'll be taking the 3/28 MCAT and wont get my scores back til the end of April.
I think i know the answer to this as being yes but just wanted to confirm, should I send in the rest of my materials ASAP and just have the mcat score pending ?

Absolutely, that is they way my application ended up working. That way the administrative stuff is done on their end and once they receive your MCAT score you can be reviewed right away. Good luck!!

 

[DrJD]

DrJD,

How long after getting complete do people tend to hear back from the program? how do they notify you of acceptance vs. rejection vs. waitlist? via email?

I turned everything in Nov. but as only recently complete because they had not yet processed everything until now. do you know how long it usually is once you get the complete? BTW They didn't send an email to say i was complete just a status change on my app. page.

Well last year they let you know about acceptance via e-mail letting you know that you were accepted to the SMP and that they were recommending you be accepted to the Graduate School. Once the Graduate school accepts you then you get an official letter in the mail.

As far as the amount of time, that really depends. It is definitely rolling so I think people will start hearing in the next month or so. I believe I heard that I was initially waitlisted in late January or early February. (This was before my new MCAT score) So should be soon, if your app is complete they will probably be reviewing it within the next few weeks. Good luck!!

 

[Doctormo24]

Is the minimum to apply a 28 or is that a recommended number?

I know their averages were around a 31

 

[DrJD]

Thanks for the response as always DrJD!!!

But to followup I have 1 more question to your reply:

1. Was that waitlist because they already knew you were going to retake the MCAT or because your score was only around their minimum? I'm confused.

I initially had a 29... and I wasn't actually waitlisted, i was actually rejected from the program. I got my new scores back a couple days later and wrote them asking them to reconsider my applicaiton. They reactivated it and accepted me The power of a 38 I guess...

Sorry I said waitlist, I was just trying to brief. So my advice to applicants is to wait until you have the most current MCAT to apply because even if you mark that you are going to be retaking it, like I did, they may still reject you. Obviously you can still get in like I did, but it was a pain to go through them having to reactivate, etc. etc.

Hope this helps!

 

[sabai sabai]

so is a 29 a bad score to have for hopes of getting in the program??? I thought that would be considered a decent enough score for the SMP. I'm confused.

I applied early last year, had a 28, 3.56 Overall, 3.3 BCPM and was accepted early January. However, I didn't attend and wish I had! I took the MCAT again and got a 31. I'm REALLY hoping they will accept me again!

 

[sabai sabai]

I was doing some internet detective work and found that many of the G'town SMP students are from top 10 universities...do the SMP adcoms weigh a 3.3 from a top ten the same as a 3.3 from a lesser known state school? would not going to a top tier undergrad put me at a disadvantage?

I am definitely not from a top ten University, and I was accepted last year, I don't think it makes much of a difference.

 

[DrJD]

so is a 29 a bad score to have for hopes of getting in the program??? I thought that would be considered a decent enough score for the SMP. I'm confused.

No don't worry! A 29 is fine, but I also had an abysmal GPA as well as some other negatives, downward slope of grades etc... Don't worry You can get in with a 29!

 

[DrJD]

What about a situation where a person has a low ugrad GPA but did a 1 year medical sci masters that was not a research masters but not an SMP and had a 3.8 GPA roughly for 33 credits worth of science? I know there was a SDNer that got in last year who had a really low GPA, but had a high grad gpa and 32 MCAT that is why I'm asking. I guess I should be patient. Just getting harder by the min. lol.

So they do admit people with below 3.0 undergrad, it just more difficult because they have to get a waiver from the graduate school at Georgetown. However, with a good graduate GPA like you said that would definitely be one reason why they would accept you with below 3.0, and make a case to the graduate school that they should accept you as well.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

What's the cutoff gpa-wise before one should apply for an smp?

 

[DrMidlife]

What's the cutoff gpa-wise before one should apply for an smp?

I listed minimum GPAs, where available, in the 2009 SMP list that's stickied at the top of the forum. Generally, the minimum is 3.0, but there are exceptions.

Note that I haven't included the DO schools in the list yet, and you'll find lower entrance requirements in these programs. Look for the 2008 SMP list for these.

 

[DrJD]

What's the cutoff gpa-wise before one should apply for an smp?

Like DrMidLife said 3.0 but there are exceptions. For example: At Georgetown they "require" a 3.0 or higher, but if you have a really high MCAT as well as other solid credentials then they can request a waiver from the graduate school to let you in.

Plan on 3.0 though

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Thanks for the replies Drs Midlife and JD.

I take it that if I have a 3.4 to almost a 3.5 by the end of my senior year, I probably shouldn't do an smp? Would it be better to take anotehr year of ugrad classes in case I don't get in or just go balls out and do the smp? For what it's worth, if I do take another year of classes at my undergrad, it'll be another 30k in tuition.

 

[DrMidlife]

I take it that if I have a 3.4 to almost a 3.5 by the end of my senior year, I probably shouldn't do an smp? Would it be better to take anotehr year of ugrad classes in case I don't get in or just go balls out and do the smp?

Depends on what med schools you're trying to get into, and the overall strength of your app. If you're trying to get into a U of California med school, and you're not URM, then you definitely need a well-known SMP, and you shouldn't apply until after you're done with the SMP. If you're not trying for a UC, and the rest of your app is amazing, then I'd apply early and broadly and see what happens.

For what it's worth, if I do take another year of classes at my undergrad, it'll be another 30k in tuition.

As will an SMP.

 

[Doctormo24]

Is the 3.0, your overall or both overall + BCPM

Can your overall be above 3.0 and your BCPM below 3.0 and still be accepted?

 

[DrJD]

Is the 3.0, your overall or both overall + BCPM

Can your overall be above 3.0 and your BCPM below 3.0 and still be accepted?

The official cut off at Georgetown refers to your overall.

What is your MCAT score??

This would allow myself, DrJD, and DrMidlife to better advise you. I agree with everything else she has stated.

Yea that is a big one, if you tell us that that may drastically change any advice you are given.

 

[JeetKuneDo]

Tell me more about your situation. What is your MCAT score?? What is your Extracurriculars? What is your home state? Someplace where its crazy difficult to get into med school like California with its competitive but well known UCs or somewhere like Tx. or Fl.???

This would allow myself, DrJD, and DrMidlife to better advise you. I agree with everything else she has stated.

Yea that is a big one, if you tell us that that may drastically change any advice you are given.

I don't have an MCAT score yet, I will be taking it this summer. My homestate is the competitive California. My EC's so far are your typical ones: Research for 1 year and counting, volunteer at the hospital, two school clubs that are not medicine based, a few hobbies, and I will have a few shadowing appointments within the next two months. MCAT is probably the defining stat for now right?

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I'm confused. So when are you planning on doing a postbac or SMP??

since you are a Cali resident I'd def. go the SMP route. preferably one of the more competitive ones like Gtown or BU MAMS!!

My original plan was to apply to medical school after senior year and be in an smp during the gap year where I'd hopefully get some interviews. I'm just thinking ahead of possible things to do during that year, which would be an smp, a traditional masters, or just stay in school for a 5th year.

 

[DrJD]

I'm confused. So when are you planning on doing a postbac or SMP??

since you are a Cali resident I'd def. go the SMP route. preferably one of the more competitive ones like Gtown or BU MAMS!!

If you truly have a 3.5, then this isn't a matter of what to do, but of "if"... If you score really well on the MCAT than you don't need anything else. Even from California, a 3.5 and 35 MCAT will get you in a LOT of places. I say stop worrying about what to do that year and focus on kicking some serious butt on the MCAT. Do Examkrackers, Kaplan, study, study, study... Spend a few thousand dollars on that so you can kick butt and then you can save yourselve the 30 to 60 thousand of an SMP...

 

[JeetKuneDo]

If you truly have a 3.5, then this isn't a matter of what to do, but of "if"... If you score really well on the MCAT than you don't need anything else. Even from California, a 3.5 and 35 MCAT will get you in a LOT of places. I say stop worrying about what to do that year and focus on kicking some serious butt on the MCAT. Do Examkrackers, Kaplan, study, study, study... Spend a few thousand dollars on that so you can kick butt and then you can save yourselve the 30 to 60 thousand of an SMP...

If you have a good MCAT score by that time then do the SMP. that's my advice. I just feel like SMPs are so much more highly valued then other graduate programs or even postbac if you ae already above a certain threshold.

Thanks for the advice you two.

 

[baldrick15]

I have a 3.15, (2.7breadth, 3.15 science, 3.5 engineering) and a 29 MCAT that I am retaking in March. Should i wait until after I get my hopefully improved MCAT score or apply ASAP before more spots are filled

 

[smilefly]

Will Georgetown accept a GRE score instead of MCAT? I just got my MPH and realized my true passion is medicine. Unfortunately I did badly in some undergrad classes and have a 3.2 overall and 2.8 science. I do not think I will be ready to take the MCAT until late may, but think I could pull off the GRE before then. Thoughts?

 

[DrMidlife]

Will Georgetown accept a GRE score instead of MCAT? I just got my MPH and realized my true passion is medicine. Unfortunately I did badly in some undergrad classes and have a 3.2 overall and 2.8 science. I do not think I will be ready to take the MCAT until late may, but think I could pull off the GRE before then. Thoughts?

If you read all 3744 messages in the Yahoo group, as I have (not saying I recommend doing this), you'll see that the stock advice for your situation is:

1. Don't compromise your MCAT prep by doing GRE prep.
2. Admissions are competitive: this is not a program you can slide into at the last minute with minimum numbers.
3. Your GPAs don't set you up for much leeway in asking for "favors" such as a "late" MCAT score.

Not very promising, in other words. In your shoes, I'd slow down. I'd get a part time job. I'd take a couple more undergrad classes, preferably upper div science, enough to get your science GPA over 3.0. And 4.0 this, no question on the 4.0, everything else is negotiable. And I'd look at MCAT prep as my fulltime job and very nearly kill myself to get over 35, taking as long as it takes, spending money on prep courses, etc.

Definitely get going on clinical volunteering, and get going on letters of recommendation. Brace yourself, it's a long and emotionally painful road.

Best of luck to you.

 

[baldrick15]

With my 3.15, and winter, spring, and summer quarters to go, is it possible to go back and retake some classes that I got C's in to raise my gpa? Right now if i get all 4.0's my gpa can only become about a 3.3 by the time the SMP deadline rolls around so I was thinking about spending an extra quarter or two in school and apply to the SMP for Fall 2010.

 

[DrMidlife]

With my 3.15, and winter, spring, and summer quarters to go, is it possible to go back and retake some classes that I got C's in to raise my gpa? Right now if i get all 4.0's my gpa can only become about a 3.3 by the time the SMP deadline rolls around so I was thinking about spending an extra quarter or two in school and apply to the SMP for Fall 2010.

Retakes aren't forgiven in the MD world, which means that if you retake a C and get an A, it works out to a B. Which means that getting an A in any old class is as good as a retake. In the DO world, retakes are forgiven (C+A=A).

Applying to Gtown "by" the deadline means you won't be getting in - it's too competitive. I'd be thinking 2010.

Any improvement you can make to your cumulative undergrad GPA is a good use of time, in my opinion. Again in my opinion, if you can get to a 3.4 with a 30+ MCAT, then you should at least see if you can get into your state schools (excepting CA, PA, maybe NY) before assuming you need an SMP.

Best of luck to you.

 

[DrJD]

Will Georgetown accept a GRE score instead of MCAT? I just got my MPH and realized my true passion is medicine. Unfortunately I did badly in some undergrad classes and have a 3.2 overall and 2.8 science. I do not think I will be ready to take the MCAT until late may, but think I could pull off the GRE before then. Thoughts?

DrMidlife had good advice but I just wanted add that logistically you CAN be accepted to the SMP with a GRE score.

I think they look to see around 1100 combined, or maybe 1200 combined, I can't remember.

I know some people who got in with a GRE and who are planning on taking the MCAT after the program so that they can do really well on it. If you planned on a lag year that could work for you too. The GRE isn't too bad, I took it without studying on a whim and scored well above 1200.

Definitely listen to DrMidLife's advice though, rushing the MCAT is a very bad idea. Your GPA is better than mine... I didn't do any recent coursework, and I have 1 acceptance and have had a few other interviews already. Your GPA will not be the end of you! Keep working hard!

 

[not so calm now]

Georgetown is a Jesuit school. How prominent are catholic viewpoints here? I'm interested in the smp, but I've been involved for years with an organization that performs abortions. This has been a very good clinical experience for me and there's no way I'm leaving it out of my app/personal statement. Will this be a problem?

 

[DrMidlife]

Georgetown is a Jesuit school. How prominent are catholic viewpoints here? I'm interested in the smp, but I've been involved for years with an organization that performs abortions. This has been a very good clinical experience for me and there's no way I'm leaving it out of my app/personal statement. Will this be a problem?

I wouldn't be worried about a Gtown-wide religious bias (c'mon, it's DC), I'd be worried about random individual bias. You have absolutely no control over who is between your PS and an invite. Effectively, you have to choose whether to aim your PS at people who agree with you (and hope it lands on one), or to aim it at people who maybe don't (and live with how it feels to represent yourself as milktoast).

In your shoes, I'd focus on the long term, and use the SMP app process as a vetting of my med school PS. I'd work up an honest and passionate draft, and I'd work up a sanitized draft. I'd find some apparently conservative faculty members, who have personality, and seek their review. How you are perceived through the document is what you want to get at. You absolutely can't judge this for yourself.

Fundamentally, the PS is a marketing document. It's where you sell yourself as a product. A good marketer can sell a passion for reproductive health, and a formative set of experiences there, as a compelling product. A bad marketer will try to use the PS to start an argument.

Best of luck to you.

 

[not so calm now]

I agree with this. It is not the SMP or school you should be worried about in talking about abortion. It is what any school's conservative adcom members may think. Even a very liberal school overall will have some conservative members on their adcom and so you want to keep it neutral. Do you really have to speak about the abortion issue?

I don't think I'm going to say anything about it in my personal statement per se, but I will mention in amcas that my clinical experiences involve working in this clinic, and it'll be pretty clear from the name what it is. I'm talking overall, here. I can't imagine georgetown has an official "pro-life" stance, but I don't want to waste time/money applying to this program if it's pretty well-known they're going to discriminate against me for this. I ask because I've heard rumors of georgetown being on the conservative/religious side of the fence - a friend with high mcat/gpa was rejected almost immediately after being complete, and he happened to be president of my school's atheist club. People with high mcats/gpas get rejected all the time, but who knows?

Thanks for the comments though, Drmidlife and guju. I appreciate any advice.

 

[not so calm now]

I wouldn't be worried about a Gtown-wide religious bias (c'mon, it's DC), I'd be worried about random individual bias. You have absolutely no control over who is between your PS and an invite. Effectively, you have to choose whether to aim your PS at people who agree with you (and hope it lands on one), or to aim it at people who maybe don't (and live with how it feels to represent yourself as milktoast).

In your shoes, I'd focus on the long term, and use the SMP app process as a vetting of my med school PS. I'd work up an honest and passionate draft, and I'd work up a sanitized draft. I'd find some apparently conservative faculty members, who have personality, and seek their review. How you are perceived through the document is what you want to get at. You absolutely can't judge this for yourself.

Fundamentally, the PS is a marketing document. It's where you sell yourself as a product. A good marketer can sell a passion for reproductive health, and a formative set of experiences there, as a compelling product. A bad marketer will try to use the PS to start an argument.

Best of luck to you.

this is very insightful and helpful. thank you.

 

[Winkie]

Any chance getting into G'town's SMP with a 27 MCAT? Do they make exceptions for lower MCATs or only lower GPAs?
MCAT:27
GPA:3.15
Science GPA:3.66
lots of clinical experience as well as 14 yr. volunteer paramedic
non-trad (40 y/o F)

 

[jbru3423]

Just wondering if anyone who is familiar with the admissions process could give me an indication as my chances for acceptance into the SMP program..

GPA - 3.65
Science GPA - 3.51
MCAT - 27O
lots of relevant extracurriculars (TA, Lab TA, free health clinic, hospital work, etc.)

Thanks in advance...

 

[KiwiBruin]

Just wondering if anyone who is familiar with the admissions process could give me an indication as my chances for acceptance into the SMP program..

GPA - 3.65
Science GPA - 3.51
MCAT - 27O
lots of relevant extracurriculars (TA, Lab TA, free health clinic, hospital work, etc.)

Thanks in advance...

Do you really need this SMP? Are you sure you can't get into med school? What if you do badly in the program... Are you doing this because you want to get into a better medical school? Seems like a big waste of time and money for someone who has great stats already... just work on your MCAT? (Just my opinion)

 

[applicantfailur]

Hey I've been meaning to ask a quesiton about the curriculum. I read that they now have gross anatomy. So is it a part of both the MCP and MSTN classes? How would you be graded for those courses? do you have like separate parts of exams on on biochem, endocrinology, anatomy? And what is the schedule of those classes? I am asking this because I'd like to evaluate the curriculum before I apply, whether it's something that would fit for me. Thanks!

 

[DocOllie]

applicantfailur - I think the answers to all your questions can be found here:

http://smp.georgetown.edu/newmedcurric.htm

"The curriculum will ADD medical Gross Anatomy (with innovative non-dissection lab curriculum and prosected cadavers) and medical Biochemistry components (in MCP and MST courses)."

 

[DrJD]

Hey I've been meaning to ask a quesiton about the curriculum. I read that they now have gross anatomy. So is it a part of both the MCP and MSTN classes? How would you be graded for those courses? do you have like separate parts of exams on on biochem, endocrinology, anatomy? And what is the schedule of those classes? I am asking this because I'd like to evaluate the curriculum before I apply, whether it's something that would fit for me. Thanks!

Hey applicantfailur,

I've actually answered your above question in a lot of detail on my blog. Check it out! The link should be in my signature... If you still have questions feel free to ask over on the blog or here and I can try to answer them as best I can!

 

[applicantfailur]

Hey applicantfailur,

I've actually answered your above question in a lot of detail on my blog. Check it out! The link should be in my signature... If you still have questions feel free to ask over on the blog or here and I can try to answer them as best I can!

Thank you, DrJD! I just read the post.

 

[applicantfailur]

applicantfailur - I think the answers to all your questions can be found here:

http://smp.georgetown.edu/newmedcurric.htm

"The curriculum will ADD medical Gross Anatomy (with innovative non-dissection lab curriculum and prosected cadavers) and medical Biochemistry components (in MCP and MST courses)."

Thank you, DocOllie, but I actually asked those questions after reading that page. I think it's important for me to know that they have lectures and labs on anatomy, and that anatomy is stretched throughout most of the med school classes.

 

[DrJD]

Thank you, DocOllie, but I actually asked those questions after reading that page. I think it's important for me to know that they have lectures and labs on anatomy, and that anatomy is stretched throughout most of the med school classes.

Did you find the answer to this question on my blog?