How many consults you get for delirium?

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I have seen in my residency the hospital is VERY realiant on psych consults and are totally overused. I personally believe it is the culture we set. We had a new attending about 4 years ago right before I started who catered to any little request and basically turned the service into us being there at anyone's beckin call.

I have talked with other folks at different places who say they (im docs) never consult psych for delirium or capacity issues. While I do not necessarily mind delirium as I often find its otherwise mis-managed or something underlying is missed but at the same time I am wondering how wide spread this is throughout the country.

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At my hospital (a large academic institution) somewhere between 2/3 and 3/4 of consults involve delirium in some way.
 
I have seen in my residency the hospital is VERY realiant on psych consults and are totally overused. I personally believe it is the culture we set. We had a new attending about 4 years ago right before I started who catered to any little request and basically turned the service into us being there at anyone's beckin call.

I have talked with other folks at different places who say they (im docs) never consult psych for delirium or capacity issues. While I do not necessarily mind delirium as I often find its otherwise mis-managed or something underlying is missed but at the same time I am wondering how wide spread this is throughout the country.

A majority of our consults involve delirium as well. I don't mind when the primary team recognizes it as such and just needs help with behavioral management or something (I'd much rather they consult than start on 2mg ativan q4 and wonder why it's not helping), but when they don't believe it's delirium and are adamant that you put them on a psych floor refusing to look for the cause... that's the problem.
 
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A majority of our consults involve delirium as well. I don't mind when the primary team recognizes it as such and just needs help with behavioral management or something (I'd much rather they consult than start on 2mg ativan q4 and wonder why it's not helping), but when they don't believe it's delirium and are adamant that you put them on a psych floor refusing to look for the cause... that's the problem.

Yes totally hear that, that is by far the worst when they think its late onset schizophrenia in a 70 year old s/p CVA!

I guess that is pretty standard. I definetly do not mind doing them, especially compared to capacity. Those just are no fun in anyway. Delirium atleast you get to be a detective and it pans out to be a little different each time.
 
I really hated the capacity consults for decision making regarding placement/living situation- when the pt did not want to go to nursing home.

My A/R usually was something like "pt currently lacks decision making capacity for placement secondary to cognitive deficits associated with delirium. Recommend that surrogate makes decision about short-term placement with reassessment of decision making capacity in 30 days."
 
I really hated the capacity consults for decision making regarding placement/living situation- when the pt did not want to go to nursing home.

My A/R usually was something like "pt currently lacks decision making capacity for placement secondary to cognitive deficits associated with delirium. Recommend that surrogate makes decision about short-term placement with reassessment of decision making capacity in 30 days."

I give ya the fact they are damn brainless and easy but that even gets me more that it costs the system another 400 dollar consult for me to ask a pt if they know where they are, why there are here and why they are making the decision they are. If it makes sense they have capacity if not they dont. Not really hard!!! But atleast they are short consults. I can bust through hose in 15 mins max! easy money if you are doing a per consult job
 
I haven't done C/L rotations yet, but I'd say the consults I've gotten on call have maybe been 50% delirium (or more at the VA). In medical school, they were like 80% of our consults, which yeah, did feel kind of ridiculous because IM docs and surgeons should know how to treat delirium. The funny thing is that I've gotten pushed to get a consult by ancillary services when I was on IM on the VA even though I felt like zero need for a consult. I guess that's VA culture.

As for decision making capacity, we don't do those at all at the university side but do do them at the VA. When I was on IM, our team tried to resist consulting psych for that as much as possible understanding that all physicians should be able to do that. However, we occasionally had situations where the social worker made us get an official psych consult before placement. Those are always frustrating when you know the primary team has already made their decision (and probably correctly made it) and just need you to shoulder the liability of whatever happens.
 
But atleast they are short consults. I can bust through hose in 15 mins max! easy money if you are doing a per consult job

when I was doing it, it was as a resident or academic psych consult attending, and the $ went to the chairman of the dept- there wasn't that much $, the pts were medicare/medicaid/no insurance mostly.
 
The residents at my program used to fantasize about having a fixed+variable salary where the variable portion was some contingent upon delirium consult volume.
 
I don't mind delirium consults if the c/l service is not busy. I think they are usually easy and fun (get to look for underlying source of delirium, feel like an internist for an hour Woohoo!), and dosing haldol is fairly straightforward.

Friends of mine in IM residencies in community hospitals (as in, there is not a psychiatry residency there and a few don't even have psych consults available) do know how to manage delirium. I asked one, "what do you do for delirious patients without psych?" and he said, "Hyperactive or hypoactive delirium?...if it's hyperactive I give them IV haldol", and I knew at that moment that when psych isn't around the internists have to step up.
 
I don't mind delirium consults if the c/l service is not busy. I think they are usually easy and fun (get to look for underlying source of delirium, feel like an internist for an hour Woohoo!), and dosing haldol is fairly straightforward.

Friends of mine in IM residencies in community hospitals (as in, there is not a psychiatry residency there and a few don't even have psych consults available) do know how to manage delirium. I asked one, "what do you do for delirious patients without psych?" and he said, "Hyperactive or hypoactive delirium?...if it's hyperactive I give them IV haldol", and I knew at that moment that when psych isn't around the internists have to step up.

Think the IM' cred stopped at having different tecniques for hypo and hyper active delirium. Treatment is no different if you choose to treat it. Hypoactive does no require as much treatment because they are not causing a rucous but if you believe in the theory anti-psychotics improve delirium than treatment is the same
 
I personally believe it is the culture we set. We had a new attending about 4 years ago right before I started who catered to any little request and basically turned the service into us being there at anyone's beckin call

Same happened at my residency program but it wasn't because the psychiatrist (who was the most lazy person I've seen in the medical field) was "catering." It was because the resident had to do the work and all he did was sign the form. Sometimes I wondered if he was actually reading what he signed.

I don't mind delirium/dementia consults except for one thing that happened in the program. There were no MMSEs done before we saw them, nor was there anyone actually documenting on a schedule if there were any changes in mental status. That's one of the cardinal ways to differentiate between delrium and dementia but the medical floor staff would not do it. I asked them to do so many times but they did not listen. The attending on consult duty could've started working with the IM dept to push the issue forward, but he didn't give a damn because the resident caught all the flack, so he just sat there and continued to do what he always did--the bare minimum to avoid getting fired.
 
For a lot of reasons, I think all services should have a psych rotation as an intern--especially IM, Ob/gyn and even surgeons...due to some of the inappropriate consults I've received.

I actually like the delirium ones because they are interesting and I get to re-visit IM in more detail, but I don't like the "this patient is crazy and needs to be towed to psych," when the patient is actually delirious.

The consults I do not like at our hospital are notoriously from OB. They often give us consults like, "this patient is a 21 year old who just delivered a baby. She had a suicide attempt 5 years ago. SEE HER!!!" and no clinical question. I will often see the patient hoping that there is actually a lot more to the story and the Ob intern just couldn't put it into words, but instead its usually a borderline or patient with a past history of depression who now has a completely normal mental status exam and is denying all mental health symptoms...and a waste of time and resources and no recommendation.

Then there was the patient my co-worker got consulted on per ob to "R/O Mania" after she had an orgasm during a pelvic exam.

The surgeons often call us with consults like, "patient just cried...see her" and occasionally will consult us on an intubated patient who has been intubated since an accident for "R/O PTSD"
 
Think the IM' cred stopped at having different tecniques for hypo and hyper active delirium. Treatment is no different if you choose to treat it. Hypoactive does no require as much treatment because they are not causing a rucous but if you believe in the theory anti-psychotics improve delirium than treatment is the same

Agreed. But at least the IM resident is at the point of recognizing delirium (hopefully...debatable) and differentiating hypo/hyper. Whether you treat or don't treat hypoactive active delirium is debatable as you suggested.

Bad Consult: "please see the patient for panic attacks". Go to the see the patient who says he had a panic attack 6 months ago, first and last.
 
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Then there was the patient my co-worker got consulted on per ob to "R/O Mania" after she had an orgasm during a pelvic exam.

The surgeons often call us with consults like, "patient just cried...see her" and occasionally will consult us on an intubated patient who has been intubated since an accident for "R/O PTSD"

iHollered for the past twenty minutes... LMAO. You can't be serious.
 
iHollered for the past twenty minutes... LMAO. You can't be serious.

A friend of mine tells the story of a psychiatrist who was called to consult on a patient for "Appears depressed, should we start an SSRI?" The patient was still intubated and comatose. "It's the only time I ever saw a proper diagnosis of Inadequate Personality Disorder."
 
A friend of mine tells the story of a psychiatrist who was called to consult on a patient for "Appears depressed, should we start an SSRI?" The patient was still intubated and comatose. "It's the only time I ever saw a proper diagnosis of Inadequate Personality Disorder."

:laugh:

Honestly, just once, I'd like to say "No." and be ascertive.
 
You should bring it up with your attending.
If there is a consistent pattern with an attending who will never say no to a consult, you should (carefully and gently) go to your training director and try to address the matter.

You shouldn't say no yourselves unless you are a senior resident and have been given that authority by the attending.
 
You do get to do this when you're an attending.

By the time I was a chief resident, I was on better terms with the IM dept than the attending in charge of psychiatry consults. They actually agreed with me that the psychiatrist in charge of it was something of a lazy bum because they too tried to work with him and he never showed up to meetings.

I worked with the IM dept on a few things they always wanted a psychiatrist to help them on, such as doing presentations for the IM residents, working on on some committees for the IM residency. I did all of this because I was having some fun but also because I believed in what I was doing--assisting our colleagues to improve education and patient care.

So after a few months of being chief, I started telling residents to say "no" to some of the consults so long as they cleared it with me first, but they had to explain why. E.g. "The patient is not appropriate for a consult because no one interviewed her using a translator as required by state law. Once that is done, then we will consider a psychiatric consultation if you request one again." Several of the consults when patients didn't speak English were, in reality, attempts by nursing staff for the psychiatry resident to sit there with the translator and get the information they were supposed to get themselves.

We bypassed the psychiatry attending. I didn't mind it because it was getting me and fellow residents out of BS consults, I knew the IM dept would back me because I was on good footing with them, and our dept head knew the attending was pretty much worthless because I addressed the issue several times and was told under-the-table that keeping that attending in-line was on the order of pulling out teeth. I figured if he wanted to complain about me, he'd look even worse since both the IM and psychiatric dept told me they'd rather have me working there than him.

I wouldn't advise this type of thing for most of you residents. Doing such could be professionally dangerous.

I mention all of this because the point is several attendings were those medstudents and residents that you are convinced will totally suck as doctors, yet these people will graduate and find jobs---some as teaching attendings. Most in medical training ascribe a level of mysticism and respect to some attendings that really are not deserving of it. I do, however, advise you keep in-line and on your best professional behavior, not just out of self-presevation, but because it's something you ought to do because it's the right thing.
 
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You should bring it up with your attending.
If there is a consistent pattern with an attending who will never say no to a consult, you should (carefully and gently) go to your training director and try to address the matter.

You shouldn't say no yourselves unless you are a senior resident and have been given that authority by the attending.

And there are programs where the training director would do anything about it? At our program, we have this very forceful consults guy who is nearing retirement, but no one will stand up to him about anything. In fact, we can't even change the technical tools we use for sign out because he objects to them. And of note, this guy only works every other month.
 
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