I chased prestige and seriously regret it.

[Anakinmemer]

Going to be in 260k of debt once interest capitalizes at graduation vs maybe 50ish because I turned down a beautiful scholarship to attend a higher ranked school. I am now realizing how stupid this was and wish I could turn back time. There really isn't much of a point to this post other than advice to follow the money if you're a premed trying to decide. I haven't calculated how much total I'll be repaying when it's all done but I imagine it will be well into the 300's. No school is worth that kind of cheddar. I feel like Anakin when he is briefly overwhelmed with regret after he iced Mace.

Anyone else have second thoughts about their choice?

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[Lawpy]

Well it depends exactly what prestige you chased, but in most cases, the cheapest option almost always is the best

 

[AzBasRad]

If you end up gunning for hypercompetitive specialities (derm, plastics, ortho, neurosurg etc) or top hospitals in non-competitive fields like IM or Peds, pedigree may matter directly or indirectly in the form of expanded research opportunities, chance to work with and obtain letters from "big names" within a field etc.

 

[solitarius]

^ What (s)he said. You can't have it all.

 

[Gurby]

If you end up gunning for hypercompetitive specialities (derm, plastics, ortho, neurosurg etc) or top hospitals in non-competitive fields like IM or Peds, pedigree may matter directly or indirectly in the form of expanded research opportunities, chance to work with and obtain letters from "big names" within a field etc.

+1 to this. Connections are everything, pretty much.

I turned down a big scholarship to go to a more established school, largely based on advice from a few attendings I knew in my personal life. I was pretty sure I wanted to do a surgical specialty, and the school offering the scholarship didn't have a residency program in that field vs the school I went to has a really solid program. For the first 2-3 years I would randomly have pangs of regret when I thought about the loans I could have avoided / the fact that I essentially threw an entire 1-2 years of salary down the drain....

But now that I'm on the other side as a resident, I am so incredibly grateful to have landed where I did. There is virtually no chance I would have matched at the amazing residency program I ended up at, basically if I hadn't impressed somebody with a big name at my home program such that they wrote overly nice things in their letter / made phone calls.

I feel like I under-appreciated this fact when I was in medical school, but where you do residency will have a big impact on what your skillset is when you graduate, and what jobs are available to you. Especially in surgery, not all programs are created equal.

(ask me again though once the student loan freeze ends, and then again once I start actually paying it back in earnest as a new attending...)

 

[drducky.]

I feel like Anakin when he is briefly overwhelmed with regret after he iced Mace.

Strong name to post content correlation

 

[Chelsea FC]

If you end up gunning for hypercompetitive specialities (derm, plastics, ortho, neurosurg etc) or top hospitals in non-competitive fields like IM or Peds, pedigree may matter directly or indirectly in the form of expanded research opportunities, chance to work with and obtain letters from "big names" within a field etc.

Agreed but alot of us just want to get through training and start working. Less debt is always a huge plus .

 

[Ho0v-man]

I didn’t care at all about prestige and regretted it. Trust me. You’ll be glad you have big names on your CV in 4th year.

 

[deleted1100659]

I graduated residency with >300k in debt. It sucks, and is quite daunting. The more you think about it, the more you realize how much of a scam federal loans are. Schools purposely set tuition to the max you can borrow, quite often. The rates are significantly higher than mortgage/car loans, despite the fact that the government knows youll have a high principal. In my day there was even a "loan fee" where you would pay a fee to borrow money. That concept baffled me. Like, isnt the fee already there in the form of interest that compounds?

Used to there was subsidized loans; for some reason that doesnt exist for grad school anymore. I have seen two sides about federal loans, one saying the government profits off them, another saying they don't but im inclined to believe federal loans are quite profitable given most graduate level loans are paid back/paid on, and at a much higher amount than the principal.

All in all, we need significant loan reform..what they should do is just set the interest rates to zero for five years while simultaneously setting caps on tuition. Im sure most people would be able to eventually pay off their loan if their interest didnt accumulate more interest so rapidly, at a rate that is quite high.

 

[Anakinmemer]

I graduated residency with >300k in debt. It sucks, and is quite daunting. The more you think about it, the more you realize how much of a scam federal loans are. Schools purposely set tuition to the max you can borrow, quite often. The rates are significantly higher than mortgage/car loans, despite the fact that the government knows youll have a high principal. In my day there was even a "loan fee" where you would pay a fee to borrow money. That concept baffled me. Like, isnt the fee already there in the form of interest that compounds?

Used to there was subsidized loans; for some reason that doesnt exist for grad school anymore. I have seen two sides about federal loans, one saying the government profits off them, another saying they don't but im inclined to believe federal loans are quite profitable given most graduate level loans are paid back/paid on, and at a much higher amount than the principal.

All in all, we need significant loan reform..what they should do is just set the interest rates to zero for five years while simultaneously setting caps on tuition. Im sure most people would be able to eventually pay off their loan if their interest didnt accumulate more interest so rapidly, at a rate that is quite high.

Yeah we have the origination fee as well, and it is a disgusting 4.28% for PLUS loans. Makes me wonder whether it's worth it to just go for private loans.

 

[deleted1100659]

Yeah we have the origination fee as well, and it is a disgusting 4.28% for PLUS loans. Makes me wonder whether it's worth it to just go for private loans.

its not worth it because you cant do income based repayment for them but refinancing to private after residency is likely worth it

 

[Anakinmemer]

You might as well be pissed at yourself for not investing in Bitcoin or $GME earlier, too. Just think of all that money you could've made!

It happened. Your debts are not any worse than most of your peers. It will be okay. As long as you're otherwise happy with the school, I wouldn't sweat it too much.

I'm actually Satoshi but it would be morally irresponsible of me to tap into my 980,000 btc.

 

[FluffyCat1212]

I'm struggling with this as well. I turned down a full ride at OSUCOM-CN to come to Mayo (my dream school). I absolutely love it here, but the debt scares the hell outta me.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I'm struggling with this as well. I turned down a full ride at OSUCOM-CN to come to Mayo (my dream school). I absolutely love it here, but the debt scares the hell outta me.

Lmaooooo

don’t doubt that decision for a second

 

[FluffyCat1212]

Lmaooooo

don’t doubt that decision for a second

Thanks- that's reassuring. I can't stop grappling with it for some reason!

 

[collegestud2013]

I wouldn't worry to much about loan balance when deciding on medical school. There's going to be more ways to pay them off or get rid of them. There are already options like PSLF, military service, or some private employers offering to pay them for you. And the options to get rid of them will likely expand in the future. For example there's talk about widespread loan cancellation from the Biden administration for up to $50k per person, and future changes in bankruptcy law may make it easier to discharge student loans in bankruptcy.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I wouldn't worry to much about loan balance when deciding on medical school. There's going to be more ways to pay them off or get rid of them. There are already options like PSLF, military service, or some private employers offering to pay them for you. And the options to get rid of them will likely expand in the future. For example there's talk about widespread loan cancellation from the Biden administration for up to $50k per person, and future changes in bankruptcy law may make it easier to discharge student loans in bankruptcy.

That's terrible advice when you're talking about 260k at 5% interest

 

[DO2015CA]

The MD Degree is the most versatile and portable degree anywhere. Back in the day physicians often were entrepreneurs. It is telling that many residents today think their economic future lays in being employed by the highest bidder. Setting aside the dark side of HCA type buyouts of private practice, a physician is limited in their economic future and happiness quotient by their lack of aspirations or dreams. You have to find someone with money who will serve as your angel investor. But first you have to dream, convince your audience of your dream, and launch. No one can give you the entrepreneurial spirit though. So it rests on you to stop seeing yourself as a monkey on a chain employed by Schmuckatelli Health Inc and dream big.

see:

Why We Need More Physician Entrepreneurs

In an era of increasing physician employment, Allison Edwards, M.D., explains why she chose to open her own practice and why she thinks others should, too.

www.aafp.org

Council Post: Five Reasons Physicians Make Excellent Entrepreneurs

There's a need for a paradigm shift in the healthcare world. I want to encourage physicians to appreciate their strengths and take the steps to create successful ventures.

www.forbes.com

Be a physician entrepreneur: Medical and health care innovation advice

The rapid evolution of health care creates opportunities for medical innovation. Physician entrepreneurs and investment experts advise how to take an idea from concept to company.

www.ama-assn.org

3 insights from physician entrepreneurs

Physician innovators share their experience & insights at a health technology panel at health technology incubator MATTER in Chicago. Learn more at AMA.

www.ama-assn.org

Are there resources to start a private practice out of residency? It’s very overwhelming with the loan debt plus starting a practice. This leads to many trying to find a job just to pay off the loans. Once in the employed position, it becomes easier to just stay.

 

[Phloston]

I'm actually Satoshi but it would be morally irresponsible of me to tap into my 980,000 btc.

If you're still HODLing Cardano, you could always use that for the loans.

 

[mwsapphire]

I have nothing else to contribute other than I'm now using the word " cheddar" to refer to debt.
Are you from WI?

 

[Anakinmemer]

I have nothing else to contribute other than I'm now using the word " cheddar" to refer to debt.
Are you from WI?

Hahah I grew up in the northeast, never been to WI actually

 

[Anakinmemer]

If you're still HODLing Cardano, you could always use that for the loans.

Lol luckily I secured a small bag back when it was 30c, but given the fact that I'm broke it obviously wasn't a big enough investment to make a difference

 

[Phloston]

Lol luckily I secured a small bag back when it was 30c, but given the fact that I'm broke it obviously wasn't a big enough investment to make a difference

Hard to feel bad for you when you got in that early.

 

[Chelsea FC]

Lol luckily I secured a small bag back when it was 30c, but given the fact that I'm broke it obviously wasn't a big enough investment to make a difference

Kinda weird you talking about making risk adverse decisions while talking about investing in crypto.

 

[EaglesOne]

I'm years away from applying to med school myself, but the director (or dean, I don't remember) of admissions at NYU Grossman SOM told a story of a student who was accepted there and really wanted to go, but was pressured by their family and peers to go to a higher ranked school. Later on, they regretted their decision and even begged the admissions committee at NYU to let them transfer (but they don't accept transfer students, so they couldn't).

So I guess that's a good example of someone choosing prestige and then regretting it (although technically they were pressured to do it).

 

[Chelsea FC]

I'm years away from applying to med school myself, but the director (or dean, I don't remember) of admissions at NYU Grossman SOM told a story of a student who was accepted there and really wanted to go, but was pressured by their family and peers to go to a higher ranked school. Later on, they regretted their decision and even begged the admissions committee at NYU to let them transfer (but they don't accept transfer students, so they couldn't).

So I guess that's a good example of someone choosing prestige and then regretting it (although technically they were pressured to do it).

Bet there is more to the story than that.

 

[Anakinmemer]

Kinda weird you talking about making risk adverse decisions while talking about investing in crypto.

Not really sure what you're getting at...because I believe in the future of cryptocurrency I'm not allowed to also wish I had saved 200,000 dollars lol? The risk of investing 1,000 dollars in crypto at my age is negligible. The risk of taking on 260,000 dollars in loans is much much higher. Not even close to the same.

 

[Chelsea FC]

Not really sure what you're getting at...because I believe in the future of cryptocurrency I'm not allowed to also wish I had saved 200,000 dollars lol? The risk of investing 1,000 dollars in crypto at my age is negligible. The risk of taking on 260,000 dollars in loans is much much higher. Not even close to the same.

You dont think gambling with $1000 before you have a positive net worth is negligible? It shows u arent as risk-averse as you think you are. And people who make small money mistakes normally make Large ones. So my point is the crypto and u choosing prestige for more debt is a pattern of behavior that might be helpful if u do some introspection,

 

[EaglesOne]

Bet there is more to the story than that.

What do you mean?

 

[Chelsea FC]

What do you mean?

Transfers are rare in medical school and normally when someone asks for one it’s more linked to extreme personal/family issues than prestige/cost of school etc. The whole story just sounds like something people would make up to make a point. But stranger things have happened.

 

[EaglesOne]

Transfers are rare in medical school and normally when someone asks for one it’s more linked to extreme personal/family issues than prestige/cost of school etc. The whole story just sounds like something people would make up to make a point. But stranger things have happened.

The story was that the student regretted going to the higher ranked school because of prestige and instead wanted to see if they could transfer to NYU, since that's where they wanted to go in the first place. But like you said, transfers are rare so that was not an option.

 

[Anakinmemer]

You dont think gambling with $1000 before you have a positive net worth is negligible? It shows u arent as risk-averse as you think you are. And people who make small money mistakes normally make Large ones. So my point is the crypto and u choosing prestige for more debt is a pattern of behavior that might be helpful if u do some introspection,

Investing in crypto is not gambling, it’s investing in a new and promising, albeit riskier, asset. If you don’t know the difference between entering a casino and buying btc, eth, cardano, etc that’s on you. Investing 1000 dollars in an asset I truly believe in despite its risks while I’m 23 is not a “mistake,” it’s a calculated decision. Most investing advice suggests that it's perfectly okay to make small riskier investments early in life as it’s much easier to recover. The downside of losing 1000 dollars from a research stipend doesn’t even compare to the upside it is currently offering, considering it has appreciated substantially already, and I have withdrawn double what I put in. If there’s another major run up, which is possible if not likely in my remaining time in medical school, I could seriously pay off a large chunk of my debt. I’m not sure why you have a condescending tone, suggesting I have a negative “pattern of behavior" and need to do "introspection" because I invested a small sum in crypto. I'm also not sure why you think you can determine what is and is not a good investment. This is not a motivational interview and you're not my financial advisor.

 

[DoctorFate]

Investing in crypto is not gambling, it’s investing in a new and promising, albeit riskier, asset. If you don’t know the difference between entering a casino and buying btc, eth, cardano, etc that’s on you. Investing 1000 dollars in an asset I truly believe in despite its risks while I’m 23 is not a “mistake,” it’s a calculated decision. Most investing advice suggests that it's perfectly okay to make small riskier investments early in life as it’s much easier to recover. The downside of losing 1000 dollars from a research stipend doesn’t even compare to the upside it is currently offering, considering it has appreciated substantially already, and I have withdrawn double what I put in. If there’s another major run up, which is possible if not likely in my remaining time in medical school, I could seriously pay off a large chunk of my debt. I’m not sure why you have a condescending tone, suggesting I have a negative “pattern of behavior" and need to do "introspection" because I invested a small sum in crypto. I'm also not sure why you think you can determine what is and is not a good investment. This is not a motivational interview and you're not my financial advisor.

If you don't mind saying what school did you pass on and what school do you attend (if not their names, then their relative rank, approximately)

 

[Anakinmemer]

If you don't mind saying what school did you pass on and what school do you attend (if not their names, then their relative rank, approximately)

I passed on a school in the 60-70 range for a t10. I understand the loans would maybe be worth it if I was going for a very competitive specialty where the pay would make up for it, but I think I'm going to be doing anesthesia or radiology which are perfectly attainable from either school, that's why I'm having some regrets. I didn't know I would be interested in these when I made my school choice of course, and hindsight is 20/20

 

[MedLife20]

Prestige has the high ground though Anakin. You do remember what happened last time when you didn’t have the high ground…

 

[thepoopologist]

Time to build a time machine and start over.

-This is medical advice.

 

[Dave1980]

Going to be in 260k of debt once interest capitalizes at graduation vs maybe 50ish because I turned down a beautiful scholarship to attend a higher ranked school. I am now realizing how stupid this was and wish I could turn back time. There really isn't much of a point to this post other than advice to follow the money if you're a premed trying to decide. I haven't calculated how much total I'll be repaying when it's all done but I imagine it will be well into the 300's. No school is worth that kind of cheddar. I feel like Anakin when he is briefly overwhelmed with regret after he iced Mace.

Anyone else have second thoughts about their choice?

I think a lot of students do this and it is unfortunate. You are starting in a big hole. The good news is that as an MD you have a big shovel to dig yourself out but it will be kind of depressing to bust your ass for 3 years as an Attending to finally say "I am officially worth 0 dollars".

 

[DoctorFate]

I passed on a school in the 60-70 range for a t10. I understand the loans would maybe be worth it if I was going for a very competitive specialty where the pay would make up for it, but I think I'm going to be doing anesthesia or radiology which are perfectly attainable from either school, that's why I'm having some regrets. I didn't know I would be interested in these when I made my school choice of course, and hindsight is 20/20

Ah, I see. Personally, my friends from top schools tell me that the value there comes from connections and the privilege the school name gives you. One of them recently graduated from Harvard-MIT's joint med program and got 8 million in investor funds for a very rudimentary proposal. If you have any aspirations outside of medicine, going to these types of schools definitely helps (and within medicine as well for residencies as others have mentioned).

 

[deleted1100659]

I wouldn't worry to much about loan balance when deciding on medical school. There's going to be more ways to pay them off or get rid of them. There are already options like PSLF, military service, or some private employers offering to pay them for you. And the options to get rid of them will likely expand in the future. For example there's talk about widespread loan cancellation from the Biden administration for up to $50k per person, and future changes in bankruptcy law may make it easier to discharge student loans in bankruptcy.

I usually am not this blunt, but this is horrible advice. You definitely need to consider in COA. Do you know much a physician pays in taxes? Do you know fast debt accumulates? Physician salaries are reasonable, but not when the COA gets to a certain point.

PLSF, are you 100% sure you will be at a eligible facility for 10 years? Im not one to gamble on a maybe in 10 years sort of deal.

Sometimes there is some loan repayment, but that is factored into your overall salary, and there are strings attached, so it isnt that easy.

Given international tensions, serving in the military just to pay off loans doesnt seem like the best reason to serve.

Biden has made it explicity clear he has zero intention of cancelling student loans, and he would do 10k at the most (which i doubt he will even do) in terms of forgiveness. He also has made it indirectly clear he doesnt favor loan forgiveness for graduate level loans.

 

[Anakinmemer]

I think a lot of students do this and it is unfortunate. You are starting in a big hole. The good news is that as an MD you have a big shovel to dig yourself out but it will be kind of depressing to bust your ass for 3 years as an Attending to finally say "I am officially worth 0 dollars".

Yeah, I'm also concerned that the size of the MD shovel is not going in the right direction and by the time I am an attending salaries will have decreased. Luckily I went straight from undergrad so my lost income is at a minimum. Really glad I didn't take any years off which would have delayed my attending income, and breaking even, to even later in life.

 

[ChiDO]

Reading some of the comments on here I feel that either some of you never have lived in real life on a paycheck, parents pay for everything, or are delusional.

For 99% of students, the decision should nearly always be the full ride or cheaper school. Your 36yo, 2-4 years into practice, with minimal debt will thank you as you pay your mortgage, student loans, new furniture your wife wants to buy, your 401k and 529 for your new born.

To the posters or people reading that you couldn't achieve X residency because you didn't go to Y, that's 99% probably inaccurate. If you work hard for what you want to accomplish, you'll end up in the correct spot. Sure, being a carribean grad and trying to match ortho at wash u is nearly impossible, but for most people, that's not the situation.

OK, off my soap box. Go to the cheaper school. I did. No regrets.

 

[deleted1100659]

Reading some of the comments on here I feel that either some of you never have lived in real life on a paycheck, parents pay for everything, or are delusional.

For 99% of students, the decision should nearly always be the full ride or cheaper school. Your 36yo, 2-4 years into practice, with minimal debt will thank you as you pay your mortgage, student loans, new furniture your wife wants to buy, your 401k and 529 for your new born.

To the posters or people reading that you couldn't achieve X residency because you didn't go to Y, that's 99% probably inaccurate. If you work hard for what you want to accomplish, you'll end up in the correct spot. Sure, being a carribean grad and trying to match ortho at wash u is nearly impossible, but for most people, that's not the situation.

OK, off my soap box. Go to the cheaper school. I did. No regrets.

amen. I dont think people understand how much gets taken out of their paycheck. When its all said and done you probably lose at least or around 1/3 of your check to taxes, as a physician. And paying back your loans isnt as easy as it sounds, depending on the amount.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Ah, I see. Personally, my friends from top schools tell me that the value there comes from connections and the privilege the school name gives you. One of them recently graduated from Harvard-MIT's joint med program and got 8 million in investor funds for a very rudimentary proposal. If you have any aspirations outside of medicine, going to these types of schools definitely helps (and within medicine as well for residencies as others have mentioned).

Yes, prestige helps if you have aspirations outside of medicine or prestige may make it easier to get very competitive specialties but 200K+ cost difference is not worth paying for prestige. That's the advice I gave to my kid except our in-state schools are prestigious.

 

[flasheroonie]

Crushing debt is becoming more and more par for the course for many med students. However, as one who is still living with a mountain of debt, I can say that as long as you keep working, it's manageable, especially if you're able to restructure it.

 

[Welshman]

Top 10 vs 70 is a massive difference and is 100% worth paying for as long as you take advantage of the resources top 10s provide. If you go there, don’t do research/network and then want to do peds you’re really wasting the opportunity IMO.

Bet there is more to the story than that.

More to the story is NYU is the less prestigious program lol

 

[SurfingDoctor]

 

[SkullbaseFoLyfe]

I went to a state school and am now an ENT resident at a top program. A good number of my coresidents are from top tier medical schools and I always think about how glad I am that I ended up at the exact same program as people who paid 2-3x more for medical school than I did.

Perhaps I had to hustle a little more than they did, but I honestly wonder why I stressed so much about going to a top tier med school when in the end it didnt really matter.

 

[Chads2]

What does Prestige really mean anyway? Anyone can be a Skywalker nowadays.

 

[dienekes88]

Just be smart and refinance your loans.

Live like a student for the first few years of residency. Live like a resident the first few years you're an attending.

I think there's a ton of value to these higher ranked places since the available resources are so much greater. One question for you to ask yourself is: if you don't see the value, then are you maximizing your experience. If you are, and you actually plan on doing a non competitive specialty, then more power to you. Just something to think about. I was a resident and now a fellow at programs ranked higher than my medical school. And I'm shocked at how much these students have at their fingertips.

 

[Mr.Blackdoc.5]

paying almost full price for the most prestigious school in the country (Harvard).
I don't think I would have turned down the full-rides and full-tuitions I got at other places for any other school.
every physician I spoke to said I should go to HMS. many on here did as well, though several others on here also recommended I take the full-rides.
I think the situation people like you and I are in is much more common than you think. heck, for HMS, stats are like 75%+ people get financial aid, but what does "financial aid" even mean? for every student I know here who has free tuition, I know others who are paying almost full-price and turned out significant merit scholarships at other top institutions. the reality is that most students take out loans. think of them as an (expensive) investment in yourself!
OP, I don't know what school you are at, but there is no going back anyways, so try not to worry too much.
Make the most of the opportunities available as others have said. regardless of what specialty you go into, you will be able to pay it back and live comfortably if you are smart about your finances. just as importantly, you'll be getting paid really well for a job you love to do.
good luck!