M.D.O.

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fisgig

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Why can't we push for M.D.O. (medical doctor of osteopathy)or the like.....isn't that what we are?? One of the biggest things holding DO's back is two little letters. I'm a third year and on a daily basis I am confronted with a patient who is unsure of my training. Just wanted other thoughts on the issue. :D

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I agree completely. I think there is no better way of getting instant recognition for DOs than just adding that letter infront of the D and O. There has already been a lengthy thread on this, do a search for MDO and the such and it should turn up
 
How is that holding us back?

-A

...and back from what?
 
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That's true.. this has been a thoroughly-discussed topic recently and over a couple decades ago as well. I recall listening to the new AOA President speak and someone brought this question up. Consistent with the AOA's stance, he doesn't think it would be realistic to change the "D.O." to anything else. From what I have gathered (and it is not as much as some people have), the AOA is always driving to keep ourselves distinct from the allopathic profession because losing our individuality would in a fashion, cause our profession to lose itself among the medical majority. At any rate, I know it is not always the most realistic case because I haven't been on rotations yet, but I feel that in most cases the patient will see you in light of your professoinalism, skill, and caring in their treatment and not what initials are behind your name.
 
Melancholy, that's just what I thought before rotations.
 
Though I agree with you I don't think that such a change will ever occur. The designation D.O. may have been accurate before osteopathy was assimilated into mainstream medicine, but it is not vaild today. We, in effect, are nothing more than M.D.s with another approach to treating patients (plus OMM in some cases), an approach that is quickly being shared with most fields of medicine. From its inception, Osteopathy has been progressive, but by not recognizing its modern and future functions, we are keeping it from moving forward. OMM is only a part who we are. The philosophy should continue to guide us forward, which includes an evolution of who we are. Finally, more basic science and OMM research needs to be done at osteopathic schools.
 
MDO? Hmmm...well, the AOA doesn't strike me as the most flexible and progressive in it's approach despite osteopathic history of innovation and forward thinking... so I don't think the change is likely...infact I think we would probably have more chance of convincing the AMA to change the MD title to MD-O (MD minus osteopathy...)!
 
Letters are just letters.

If you want to advance the profession, educate the public.

I, as a premedical student, find myself educating people on a weekly basis about osteopathic medicine...and I am not even in a position of the greatest knowledge or influence.

As osteopathic medicine grows and reaches more people, the letters will become known.

If you are that insecure about what letters come after your name or you are so concerned with having to educate others about osteopathic medicine, maybe you are in the wrong profession.

There are a great many people who would sacrafice a lot to be in your position.
 
Bravo, JP. This exact question came up recently at my school in a meeting of ACOFP. Since KCOM is the only Osteopathic school chartered to grant either the MD or DO (the board of trustees will NOT invoke the MD charter under any circumstances, but it is active), one of the students indignantly stated that KCOM should allow the student to choose if they want an MD or a DO. I agree completely with a resident who was present who stated, "You do have a choice--there's the door."

If you are only going to a DO school because you couldn't get in to an MD school, please do everyone a favor and find another field. Don't feed me this crap about how I am just a med student so I don't know--I have family who are DOs and they are not in the least bit sorry. Your profession is what you make of it. I do not expect anything to be given to me simply based on the letters behind my name--I should earn whatever career I end up with.
 
Besides, M.D.O.? You think that changing the name AGAIN won't confuse anyone? Anything other than MD will make people suspicious until the old generation is gone. If you change it again, you need to wait another generation to pass before you lose that wishy-washy association.
 
Originally posted by fisgig:
•Melancholy, that's just what I thought before rotations.•

What do you mean by this? Have you been singled out in rotations or given different treatment because you were a DO student???
 
Based on what I have heard from M.D.'s and D.O.'s, the vast majority of patients don't ask about their physician's eductional background. If you aren't capable of explaining what those little letters mean when it does come up you probably shouldn't be treating patients. Foremost, the designation D.O. is not keeping osteopathy from moving forward. It is the AOA. It is wrought with oldgaurd D.O.'s. Osteopathy can't remain the anathema it has been. Simply put, we have to establish its value and stand behind it with proof. My thoughts on the matter:
1.Again, more basic science and OMM research needs to be done at osteopathic schools.
2.Each school should have a graduate school of biomedical sciences.
3.Each school should have a dedicated center of biotechnology.
4.Equally as important, each school should have a department of public health.
5.Osteopathic residency programs should be dropped with the exception of Physical Medicine, OMM, Sports/family medicine, and Orthopedics.
Once osteopathy makes SIGNIFICANT contributions to medicine there will be no more questions about who we are.
 
TCOM-2005, hold up a moment. Do you mean that DO's should ONLY be those that you mention, or that the other programs suck so bad that we should do MD programs? I agree with everything you say except the last comment. I don't believe that we as a profession understand the importance of research. Managed Care WILL move toward evidenced based medicine and algorithms. When they do, OMT will be SOL for reimbursement without positive research. Of course, if you can't pay the bills you can't help people. If that happens then to hell with the M.D.O. thing, might as well call us M.D. Also, don't pull out the "treat the whole person" card. That is the dumbest thing that I hear about our profession. Just ask an M.D. if he believes in treating the whole person. Don't take this the wrong way I love being a D.O. I would not EVER want to go to an M.D. school, that is why I agree so firmly with you.
 
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TCOM-2005,

any chance you were in San Diego for the SOMA conference this weekend (because what you said sounds exactly like a big topic of conversation there among a lot of the students)?

Anyway, my two cents is that I agree with you.

Everybody else-

I think TCOM-2005's point about the residencies is that by having separate MD/DO residencies in the same fields, we are just widening the gap and continuing to convey to the medical profession along with the general public (ie our patients) that there is a difference in the education levels.

I know that there isn't, but that what I sometimes think that these types of separations convey.

Look, in an ideal world, yes, we sould be able to explain to our patients if they don't already know that we are qualified to care for them blah blah blah, but come on, this is the real world, and we will have so many other aspects of patient care to worry about that it just makes sense to try to lessen the gap in the public's mind however we can in respect to education level and our competence. Now most of us are in DO school because we do believe that there is a higher QUALITY of care that we can give our patients, but it an important part of that equation is having the patients to give care to. If they don't trust us or come to our offices for whatever reason, then there is no way to show them our full potential as care-givers.
 
WOW! Have to get in on this interesting exchange...

The push for the MDO designation is really nothing more than a consequence of our continued professional revolution. AT Still was without doubt a pioneer, but it is indisputable that some of his most fundamental views are at odds with contemporary medical practice. Indeed, almost no practicing DO would label surgical intervention and pharmaceuticals as unnecessary. Anyone who disagrees with the notion that DOs are continually redefining themselves needs to take a good look around. One of the reasons why we do not enjoy a uniform international standard of practice is that the meaning of "osteopath" differs from border to border. Simply stated, the american osteopathic movement has definitely become more mainstream. In order to enjoy full practice rights, insurance reimbursement, ACGME residency opportunites, and equality, we must necessarily produce DOs that are complete, competent physicians. This whole MDO topic reflects the state of our profession: Professionals and pre-medical students sometimes cannot understand why the perception of an osteopath as an alternative or substandard practioner still persists. If indeed we are similar to MD's in our knowledge base and scope of practice, then why not change the designation to symbolize our assimilation into the american medical mainstream? Personally, I dont give a crap about titles or letters. I am just grateful for the open-mindedness of this forum. Exchanges like these give everyone a change to learn a little more.

One last thing- I took an EXTREMELY small exception to the last post. Admittedly, I am one of those osteopathic medicine students who could not gain admission into an MD school. I spent three years pouring over refined secondary applications and failed interviews. Ironically, it was an MD friend of mine who educated me about osteopathy. I endeavored to learn a little more about the field, and the rest is history. The umbrella of osteopathic medicine is extremely large and has room for every type of student, traditional or not. I for one am absolutely grateful for my current circumstance and glad that my DO school did not discriminate against me because of my less than fundamental "osteopathic background." They welcomed me with open, manipulation capable arms. Perhaps they felt that practicing allied health providers would add yet another dimension of diversity to the incoming student class? Who knows... I am now am now extremely active in recruiting new applicants, talking to interviewees, and educating people about the intracies and sometimes "non-uniqueness" of our profession. "Finding another field," as JohnDO suggests, is not an option. Clearly, the issues facing our profession are much bigger than rejected pre-MD students matriculating at our institutions. Education is mediator of misunderstanding. It is both a personal and professional responsibility. Just ask the pre-professional advisors at the University of Florida. Some of them still recommend applying to DO schools along with foreign medical schools-- "as a backup." Food for thought. Love the exchange,

PUSHinEPI2, future D.O, or M.D.O.....
 
Originally posted by John DO:
•Since KCOM is the only Osteopathic school chartered to grant either the MD or DO (the board of trustees will NOT invoke the MD charter under any circumstances, but it is active)•

This makes a lot of sense, but even if the KCOM Board of Trustees were to "invoke the MD charter" the school wouldn't be able to grant MD degrees. The official body that accredits institutions which grant MD degrees in the United States is the AAMC, the education arm of the AMA. Because KCOM is a medical school on American soil, should it ever decide to grant MD degrees it would need the approval of the AAMC. And just for clarity, it grants the DO as dictated by the AOA Bureau of Professional Studies.
 
My feeling is that we should go for a combined MD/DO degree. Why? Because in reality, much of our training and learning is exactly the same as the MD's. We should also have the additional DO degree because we do recieve extra training in the area of the musculoskeletal system. I think that this would allow a better communication bridge between not only DO's and MD's but also between MD/DO and the public. We would also then be able to pool all of our resources together instead of competing for them.
 
In response to the questions about my response to the original post:
1.I believe that there should only be Osteopathic residencies in fields that can utilize OMM,not that D.O.s should only be able to do those residencies and no others. Clear now?
2. I did not attend the conference in Cali.
*If we sit on our rear ends and let Osteopathy vanish we will be doing a tremendous disserivce to medicine. This does not refer to OMM only.
 
pushin epi- what did you do before as an "allied health provider"? just curious-emedpa
 
(In response to emedpa)

Your background is a bit more expansive than mine, as I recall. I've been a paramedic for several years. I completed University of Maryland's Critical Care Paramedic course and recently joined the ranks of the NREMT. Primarly, I functioned as a lead paramedic for an advanced life support transport/fire rescue service. I also spent some time in community hospital emergency rooms.

Regards,

Ben
 
that's a significant amount of experience. I'm sure you will do well. good luck-emedpa
 
Regarding the feelings that some of us have about those who "only went to DO school because they were rejected by MD schools".. I was sitting in on a noon lecture by Ted Spevack, DO who is the director for the Emergency Dept. at St. Barnabas Hospital in the Bronx (NY) and if I remember correctly, he mentioned the reason he went DO was because it _gave him a chance to become a doctor_. I don't exactly remember if he was rejected by MD schools, but I think he mentioned it. At any rate, he continued by saying that afterwards he wanted to stay loyal to AOA because the fact that DO schools gave him support to become a doctor and he was returning the favor.

I know we don't try to, but it is sometimes easy to judge those who enter DO school for other reasons than solely because becoming an _osteopathic_ physician was the top priority for them over anything else. I'm still young, but I'd like to think that everyone is working towards the same goals of becoming a competent physician and that shouldn't be downplayed any. Just my thoughts after a late night of studying..
 
Hey Melancholy,

Your first year, you will get this lecture.

"In this room, there are 3 groups of DO students...those of you who applied only to DO schools, those who applied to both and chose DO, and those of you who applied and couldn't get into MD"

All three groups are going to be your classmates and I wouldn't let it bug you, it's all good. The motivation of all the students will be the same...to learn the practice of medicine.

-dieselkid
 
Hey fisgig-

We already tried that. Every heard of the little "mds" in California. Not a smooth move on our part.

-dieselkid
 
Originally posted by fisgig:
•Why can't we push for M.D.O. (medical doctor of osteopathy)or the like.....isn't that what we are?? One of the biggest things holding DO's back is two little letters. I'm a third year and on a daily basis I am confronted with a patient who is unsure of my training. Just wanted other thoughts on the issue. :D

um d00d,

if you want the letters "m.d." go to allopathic =D DO letters are fine, because they distinguish osteopathic docs from allopathic docs! Tell your patient that you are an osteopathic doc, and then let him/her decide!

owcc16
 
Then owcc16, tell me what the big difference between do/md is that would need differing letter designations? I'm a third year and am learning medicine the same as any other MD student.
Thanks.
 
I am still at a loss of where "two letters are holding us [osteopathic physicians] back?" At no point in this whole discussion (unless I missed it) where specific instances ever brought up...

Residency positions? Well, DO students have the luxury of matching with AOA-approved slots (there isn't enough to go around) or AMA-approved slots. Read the match lists from the osteopathic schools... DO students match to some very competitive slots (a student from AZCOM matching to Johns Hopkins comes to mind).

Money? Last time I looked it up, money differential is based on specialty not on MD/DO. Usually, at that level, you are identified as a "Nephrologist" not a "Allopathic nephrologist" or "Osteopathic nephrologist."

Prestige? Doctor is doctor is doctor. Hell, most people applying to medical school cannot differentiate between allopathic and osteopathic medicine. Do you really think laypeople can? They are concerned only with a person being a good physician.

Anyway, it is the AOA that wants to keep the distinction. I tend to agree. Now both my Mom and the AOA says "I'm special." :D

An apple is an apple. An orange is an orange. They're both fruits. Similiar yet different.

Anyway, if you want a reality check on the situation... How many allopaths practice "idealistic allopathy?" How many osteopaths practice "idealistic osteopathy?" Not many (if at all). Most people practice medicine based on what they learn in medical school combined with their personal beliefs. I'll call my degree "Amra-pathy."

-A
 
How many osteopaths practice "idealistic osteopathy?" Not many (if at all). Most people
practice medicine based on what they learn in medical school combined with their personal beliefs. I'll call my degree "Amra-pathy."

"Amra-pathy" hmm, I like it...but what letters will you put after your name!?!??!

Don't you realize that to some people that's all that this discussion is about!
 
Figsig,

Could you describe what happened on your rotations, I'm curious to know what a patient may have said to make you think that a change may be necessary.

Frankly, most of y'all are going to take the same test that I am (USMLEs), plus a bonus test that you have to take, and most of you are going to pass, just like we will.

My friends at DO schools take the same damn classes and learn the same damn things. You guys chose a different road than I did (or maybe the road was chosen for you...), but I bet I'll be practicing with some of you in a few years. If you're competent and caring, no one will care, and it will be an issue for about 20 seconds with the patients. Heck, here at Tulane, if you have a white coat and a stethoscope, people think you're a doctor. I can't believe that it would be different at a DO school, unless you guys have baby blue colored coats or something.

And if you don't like the letters, I don't get why someone suggested you should go to another field. Don't we all just want to be doctors? That's why I'm here. Not for the two letters. I'd still be here if the letters were S.K. or D.F. or T.L. or X.N. ... They're just letters, dudes.

Simul Parikh, future DOCTOR
Tulane Med '05
 
Dieselkid- Yeah, I vaguely remember that "lecture".. mainly because to me, I didn't feel like there was a big difference in the end since we are all heading in the same direction to become physicians. I guess I was just writing that as a statement or comment... nothing more. It doesn't matter what the person did before they came to the school in my book or how many times they had to apply to get into med school... DO or MD. I'm glad to be in medical school.. given my shot to become a doctor.. and glad to be surrounded by my future peers and colleagues.

Darn it's late.. time to sleep. :p
 
Actually, oldernotwiser, my goal is to get alphabet soup after my name... :D

-A, B.Sc., M.Sc., D.O., D.A. (Doctor of Amra-pathy)....

Can I buy a vowel please Alex? :rolleyes:
 
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