Rank list time!

[Irish01]

As I'm sitting in my hotel room before my last interview playing with my rank list I just thought I would ask everybody some general questions ...

How many programs are you ranking vs. how many did you interview at this year? How many programs do you think gives you a "safe" number? What are your big criteria?

For me, I've interviewed at 16 programs (soon to be 17) and plan on ranking all but 2 programs (one program in a TERRIBLE location and another one where the residents were a big freakshow) for a grand total of 15 programs on my rank list. After last year I'm not sure if this is a safe number or not.

And my big criteria are starting to focus more on location and less on program. I'll be a surgeon anywhere I go, but I'm not sure if I can live in the boonies for 5-6 years. But ask again tomorrow and I may say the exact opposite.

Thoughts? Anyone else starting to worry about the difference between number 7 and number 8 or any other minute detail that probably wont matter?

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[sml1120]

everyday my order changes. i go back and forth on places where i would love to live but have no family or friends nearby and other places where i would virtually be at home. i can't even pin down number one so i cannot imagine how i am going to order the 14 places i have decided to rank. at least i only have one left after tomorrow.

 

[jbish]

I think I've nailed down my top 3...but the rest of my list is in constant flux...I will end up ranking 12 (of 14 interviews). I guess we'll see in a few months if it was enough......

 

[jihu]

I've figured out my #1, but nothing else. Which is useless, because I'm such a long-shot for that #1 it's not even funny. For that matter, my top 4 will be such reaches that my real rank list actually starts at #5. Anyway, no concrete rank list yet on my end.

 

[Bitsy3221]

I'm going to rank all 12 of the programs at which I interviewed. I've got some pretty solid feedback from a few of the programs, so although I know you can never trust anyone in this game, I think I'll be safe. (knock on wood! )

I agree that location is playing a big role in this decision, much bigger than when I sent off my ERAS. I agree that I can come out of pretty much every one of these programs a skilled surgeon, so I have to use factors like location and reputation to help me rank the programs. I might as well make the most of my very limited free time and see my family and friends as much as I can--residency is going to be so hard I think it will be good to have as strong a support network around me as possible.

Good luck to everyone!!

 

[lennox23]

i hated the whole rank thing.
it made me lose sleep, and more importantly, valuable time to live it up in what will be one of the best years of your life.

my advice, go with your gut. surgery training programs are STAGGERINGLY similar, across the board. we train the same number of surgeons as we have for years. all of them have job security. all of them learn to operate. the case load is incredibly similar across the board.

i matched at my #3 place, was shocked, and in retrospect it has been an absolute blessing. It has been the best training that I could have asked for. It got me the "high powered" fellowship of my choice. I feel well trained. I did productive research, but most importantly, I spent seven years honest to god happy.

I am not envious of you guys as fourth year med students because the match is so painful. But just go with your gut, where you will be a happy individual.

You spend 5-7 years there. Make sure teh PEOPLE are those you could work with. make sure the location is where you can be happy. The rest, in the end, is all marginal. Programs are staggeringly similar.

Good luck to everyone.

 

[Entei]

I know number 1 for certain. Have known for several months, actually. Also know I'm a long shot to match there, but I think I've made peace with the prospect that I won't be working there.

Have a pretty good idea of the next 3-4.

Am less certain about the order of the rest, but I'm not really stressed out about it either. With the exception of 2-3 programs, I have not interviewed at any place that I think I would be especially unhappy. Am I really just too laid back about the whole thing? Maybe I'm just burnt out by the Match and its associated games, but I'm just ready to finally move on to the next step, regardless of where that happens to be. A few weeks/months ago, I was counting the days until I could enter my list, and here it is 1/23/07, and I still haven't put it in.

The whole thing just seems so out of my control, anyway. Does it matter so much how badly I want to be at a particular program, or where I stick it on my list? They still have to want me just as badly, so regardless of how I set my list up, a lot of it is still out of my hands. I know, I know. "The Match works to the applicant's advantage" and "Rank where you really want to go," but it's so hard to tell from an interview/second look/word on the street if you'll really be happier working at one specific place over another. It just seems so arbitrary. Am I just being defeatist?

 

[Irish01]

I feel like I have the top 3 nailed down as well - and maybe the next 3 as well. But THEY all feel like such reaches. I feel like surgery in general is a big long shot for me though (thanks to my crap-tastic board scores) so I almost feel like "Whats the point? I may not match anywhere!"

But the two programs that I have eliminated passed the ultimate test - would I rather be stuck there for 5-7 years or do a prelim year a try again? And while the word "prelim" gives me the willies, there are two places that I absolutely could not be for residency. So I feel good about that.

So part of me does want to just throw names in a hat and go for it and take it from there, but I do realize that I will have to live with my list.

As for the whole "Applicants advantage" thing - yeah, I question it a bit too. If I put my big reaches first, will there be any room for me at the others? Ugh.

Maybe rock, paper, scissors is the way to go ...

 

[Entei]

As for the whole "Applicants advantage" thing - yeah, I question it a bit too. If I put my big reaches first, will there be any room for me at the others? Ugh.

Well, I really believe that they're telling us the truth when they explain how the Match works. My point is that my list is only half the equation. It doesn't matter how much I love programs X, Y, or Z or how many phone calls I make or creepy love letters I send, I can't influence their lists in significant way, so why worry about it? It really feels like none of this is in my control anymore.

I really hate the Match. What ever happened to that class action lawsuit against the NRMP that those crazy people were putting together a few years ago?

 

[footcramp]

The match sucks but what's better? Before the current system, medical students were forced to take offers a year or two in advance without the luxury of interviewing. It was a mad free-for-all, and completely at the advantage of the programs.

 

[dpmd]

As for the whole "Applicants advantage" thing - yeah, I question it a bit too. If I put my big reaches first, will there be any room for me at the others? Ugh.

If you rank a program dead last, and it is filled with people that the program ranked lower than you, the lowest ranked (by the program) will get bumped off and you would get the spot. Everyone is always trying to figure out some way to game the matche, or they think there is some sort of conspiracy that affects how they should rank things. It is really just as simple as ranking the programs in the order you like them (figuring out what that order is...now that is difficult). If you think you have a good chance at program B, but you really like program A you will not hurt yourself by putting A first. Its not like they will assign the slot to the person that listed program B first, but was at the bottom of the program's rank list. What you can't really affect is where the program ranks you, so try not to think about it and instead figure out what your priorities are and how each program fits those priorities. If all else fails, you could just go in alphabetical order . Whatever you decide, feel free to put in a preliminary ROL now. That way if you forget, or get hit by a car and are in a coma for a month, you will participate in the match. I'm sure there will be someone who doesn't certify a ROL that will feel like the world's biggest idiot later.

 

[Entei]

The match sucks but what's better? Before the current system, medical students were forced to take offers a year or two in advance without the luxury of interviewing. It was a mad free-for-all, and completely at the advantage of the programs.

I've heard the horror stories about the old system before, but I honestly think we could have come up with a better solution than the Match. There are plenty of other industries and professions that have to hire graduates in batches, and they seem to function fairly without a Match. It may have been a mad free-for-all back then, but is it really that much better now? It takes months of miscommunication and politicking, and other assorted raindeer games to facilitate the Match now. At least we have a (very expensive and slow) computer to run the algorithm now. From what I understand, in the early days of the Match, the whole thing was done by some little old ladies who volunteered to sort out everything on index cards in some rented out gymnasium.

Sure, this is all wailing and gnashing of teeth from someone who's in the middle of the whole process, and everyone's had to suffer through it already. But it's just especially frustrating when you have a long shot #1 and a decent shot #2. Because no one can be clear in saying where anyone will rank anyone, you have to play all these games and put all your eggs in one basket. You can have phone calls made to your #1, and write letters saying they're #1, but what can you do with #2? Tell them you'll "rank them very highly?" Everyone says that to everyone. Tell them they're #2? Might as well tell them you really don't want to go there after all. I guess the Match wouldn't be so bad if we didn't have all these strange and seemingly arbitrary rules about communication.

 

[footcramp]

i agree there's a lot of BS but it's no worse than life in general. in business you have to kiss even more ass. in real life i don't tell my professors i took a class for an easy A or easy pass, nor do i tell my grandma i don't really want to buy her flowers on mother's day. just grin and bear it. at least it's to our advantage and we get to check out programs first. although i have no idea why it takes 3 weeks after ranklists to come up with the results. wouldn't it be scary as hell to submit a ranklist and have the results show up like an hour later? but yeah, what was my point?

 

[THE instiGATOR]

Last year I ranked all 15 of the 15 programs I interviewed with. I hated two of those programs but ranked them anyway. I failed to match, so I wouldn't say there is a "safe" number.

This year I interviewed with 18 programs and will rank 17.

I can't believe I will have to be an intern a second time! It'll be much easier the second time around, though.

Good luck to all!

 

[Rook16]

Im not quite sure what games people are referring to.

Step 1 = interview

Step 2 = Rank

Step 3 = Match

Am I missing something here?

 

[Irish01]

Having watched all my former college roommates go to law school, get internships, and then field job offers all in a pretty timely and efficient way, I do sometimes wonder why we still have the rank process in general. There are LOTS more of them graduating every year, and yet somehow they all make it out alive. The big consequence of switching from the match to a traditional job search would be the number of graduates that walk out of school without a job. As much as we bitch and moan about the match, it at least regulates the number of positions available in some way and even if we don't get into what we want we COULD always jump into an FP or IM slot. We might hate our lives in FP or whatnot, but we wouldn't end up living in our parents basements for three years trying to find work.

I have my prelim rank list all lined up. I'll probably change it a few times before I finally certify it, but at least I feel better knowing that I've put SOMETHING out there. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for my top 3, but would still be more then happy with any of my top 6. As for the rest, I'm not going to rank someplace I would be miserable so I'll be satisfied that I match at all.

And why do I feel like a bunch of little old ladies sitting around in a gymnasium could do this faster then the computer? Give em some coffee and donuts and they could crank this out in a week!

 

[drpectin]

The NRMP was not created to benefit us. Its purpose was to help significantly reduce the number of unfilled positions at hospitals nationally. The initial match put applicants at a significant disadvantage - whereas the current match is now to our "advantage." Anyway, in the end the whole process seems pretty optimal, you get to choose programs in your order of preference. Without having to commit to a program when they offer you a job right after the interview.

The anticipation, dread, and general worrying that accompanies the match is at least shared by everyone who participates, even the superstars.

 

[beefballs]

Having watched all my former college roommates go to law school, get internships, and then field job offers all in a pretty timely and efficient way, I do sometimes wonder why we still have the rank process in general. There are LOTS more of them graduating every year, and yet somehow they all make it out alive. The big consequence of switching from the match to a traditional job search would be the number of graduates that walk out of school without a job. As much as we bitch and moan about the match, it at least regulates the number of positions available in some way and even if we don't get into what we want we COULD always jump into an FP or IM slot. We might hate our lives in FP or whatnot, but we wouldn't end up living in our parents basements for three years trying to find work.

I have my prelim rank list all lined up. I'll probably change it a few times before I finally certify it, but at least I feel better knowing that I've put SOMETHING out there. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for my top 3, but would still be more then happy with any of my top 6. As for the rest, I'm not going to rank someplace I would be miserable so I'll be satisfied that I match at all.

And why do I feel like a bunch of little old ladies sitting around in a gymnasium could do this faster then the computer? Give em some coffee and donuts and they could crank this out in a week!

the match seems to ensure that hospitals are staffed and reduce competition for house labor btwn institutions.

disclaimer-I know nothing, just a casual observation

 

[DNASplicer]

My list is almost final...

Do you think it would be better to rank a place you did NOT like and apply for a transfer from that spot or try your luck at obtaining a prelim spot?

 

[dpmd]

Depends on how much you didn't like the place. If you just think you would be happier elsewhere, but can tough it out in the event you can't transfer then rank it. If you hate it so much that you would rather go unmatched then don't rank it. Don't hang all your hopes on being able to transfer, and be realistic about your chances should you have to reapply. There is one program that after much agonizing I have decided not to rank. This is despite the fact that I didn't match last year. I probably should never have applied there, but I felt I had to. I started out the season feeling pretty desperate, but as interviews progressed, the uneasy feeling I felt about that program grew. It was a tough choice, but in the end I decided I would be so unhappy there I probably wouldn't make it through even the first year. Evaluate what you don't like about the program, and decide whether you can make it through even if you aren't thrilled about it. Then make your ranking decision.

 

[Doc Ivy]

I have a question, and forgive me if it's stupid. Are you guys ranking the undesignated prelim spots for the categorical programs you interviewed at? Is this even possible if you didn't apply for the preliminary surgery to begin with in ERAS? I heard that most PDs will rank applicants they interviewed for categorical positions in their prelim ROL as well. Is this true?

 

[Irish01]

I think you can rank prelim spots if you wish, but I'm not going to. I'm going to take my chances categorical only, with the faith that there will be unfilled prelim spots available in the scramble. My home program always "saves" 2 or 3 prelim spots just for the scramble - both because there are plenty of quality applicants that don't match, and for those of us at that program that dont match.

 

[Doc Ivy]

I think you can rank prelim spots if you wish, but I'm not going to. I'm going to take my chances categorical only, with the faith that there will be unfilled prelim spots available in the scramble.

Hmm. Seems like a high risk strategy to me. Especially since I don't know if my home program saves prelim spots like yours. I feel like if the worst possible scenario occurs and I don't match in a categorical spot, then at least I have a chance at a prelim spots in programs I interviewed at and liked.

 

[Irish01]

A quick search of last years match showed that for the roughly 1200 prelim spots available each year, there were nearly 500 unfilled prelims spots available on match day. A few programs that I interviewed with said that the number of prelims they have each year is variable - sometimes 2, maybe 4, etc. They mentioned it was based on the quality of applicants they could snatch up on scramble day.

Maybe I'm having blind faith that I can grab a prelim spot if i really need to. And while thinking about my rank list (I sent an email out to my top 5 today - scary!) I think to myself "would I rather match here, or do a prelim year?" If the answer is prelim year, that program isn't ranked.