SAT restarted in Ivy League schools, is MCAT becoming more important? Could Step1 score come back?

[tompremed]

Harvard announces return to required testing — Harvard Gazette

Leading researchers cite strong evidence that testing expands opportunity.

news.harvard.edu

Harvard is the latest Ivy to require SAT for undergraduate admissions, after data showed SAT scores correlate well with student performance in college.

Could MCAT, which has also a demonstrated correlation to board exams, regain some of its lusters?

Could STEP 1 again become scored rather than P/F?

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[pablo213]

Tbh I think the MCAT has been and continues to be the most important part of one's application. I don't think Step 1 will revert to being scored (Step 2 has basically already taken its place) but that's just my $0.02

 

[Goro]

Harvard announces return to required testing — Harvard Gazette

Leading researchers cite strong evidence that testing expands opportunity.

news.harvard.edu

Harvard is the latest Ivy to require SAT for undergraduate admissions, after data showed SAT scores correlate well with student performance in college.

Could MCAT, which has also a demonstrated correlation to board exams, regain some of its lusters?

Could STEP 1 again become scored rather than P/F?

MCAT is always important. Can you Enlighten us as to why you thought it was otherwise?

And no Step 1 isn't going to go back to being scored.

Med school admissions is not the same as college admissions.

 

[tompremed]

MCAT is always important. Can you Enlighten us as to why you thought it was otherwise?

And no Step 1 isn't going to go back to being scored.

Med school admissions is not the same as college admissions.

I have the impressions that med schools got out of USNews rankings because they don't like the importance they placed MCAT and GPA in the computations.

Also maybe this ? Penn medical school expands minority candidate program that does not require MCAT | The College Fix

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Also maybe this ? Penn medical school expands minority candidate program that does not require MCAT | The College Fix

That's an articulation agreement program. While I would foresee more agreements being set up, I do not see the correlation with a hard requirement for the MCAT. In fact, by not allowing their students to take the MCAT, the students essentially lock themselves into attending that specific medical school program. You can also see how that can artificially bump the overall MCAT average (you can't include scores of students who don't take them) AND the overall diversity of the program.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Harvard announces return to required testing — Harvard Gazette

Leading researchers cite strong evidence that testing expands opportunity.

news.harvard.edu

Harvard is the latest Ivy to require SAT for undergraduate admissions, after data showed SAT scores correlate well with student performance in college.

SAT has always shown some correlation with college "performance" but the problem is that it confirms racial/structural disparities in college preparation. Basically high SAT scores reconfirm that students from private boarding schools with expensive tutors can get into the Ivy League schools if they push themselves. There's a lot of other things that Harvard undergrad admissions has running about.

The issue is that removing the SAT requirement at many schools had little change in the socioeconomic diversity of their entering classes while academic performance was adversely affected... though again, COVID didn't do those high school kids much good either. I would have preferred a slightly longer window, but admissions is much more than how you score on the SAT the fourth time you take it.

Could MCAT, which has also a demonstrated correlation to board exams, regain some of its lusters?

When has it ever lost its luster? It's not like there is an alternative, and research still shows GPA+MCAT has a high predictive value.

Could STEP 1 again become scored rather than P/F?

Not in the near future.

 

[tompremed]

I hope you guys are right, and below are minority views in the medical community....

Eliminating bias from medical school admissions

Less reliance on MCAT and GPA scores, and more focus on the whole student, could drastically increase the number of Black medical students, one dean argues.

www.aamc.org

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/12/07/mcat-medical-schools-diversity/
"Med schools should de-emphasize standardized admissions tests"

 

[Hollow Knight]

I hope you guys are right, and below are minority views in the medical community....

Eliminating bias from medical school admissions

Less reliance on MCAT and GPA scores, and more focus on the whole student, could drastically increase the number of Black medical students, one dean argues.

www.aamc.org

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/12/07/mcat-medical-schools-diversity/
"Med schools should de-emphasize standardized admissions tests"

I get what you're saying, and I don't believe in getting rid of test scores.

However, the MCAT really doesn't reflect what kind of med student or doctor you'll be. It reflects how good you are at taking tests. Yeah, we need students who are smart enough, but once you get to a certain threshold, it's not that big of a deal what your score is.

I probably have the highest MCAT in my med school class, but I'm definitely not the brightest person here. I'm just very, very good at test-taking

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I hope you guys are right, and below are minority views in the medical community....

Eliminating bias from medical school admissions

Less reliance on MCAT and GPA scores, and more focus on the whole student, could drastically increase the number of Black medical students, one dean argues.

www.aamc.org

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/12/07/mcat-medical-schools-diversity/
"Med schools should de-emphasize standardized admissions tests"

I get it, but de-emphasizing or finding balanced value is different from completely eliminating the test. I have no problem giving adcoms limited access to scores if the applicant meets or exceeds admissions requirements.

Law schools admissions has been taking a serious hit. More applicants than spots. Removing the LSAT barrier is meant to get more people to apply to the lower-tier schools. That is a reason that many schools are lifting standardized test barriers too.

But the contact lens model of holistic review still puts the metrics at the center. You can't avoid having some metrics guide the process.

 

[tompremed]

I agree with what everyone is saying here, that MCAT should be part of the evaluation process. What I was concerned is the trend to de-emphasize its importance. Actually, what troubles me more is the essay requirements in the secondary. Applying to ~ 30 schools literally requires about two months of full time work. Applicants with lower socioeconomic backgrounds are less likely to have the time and resources, e.g. having friends or parents who can proofread or paying for consults to do them, for these essays. The worst offender among the top 20 schools is probably Duke. I heard of multiple applicants who skipped on Duke secondary because of the essays. Ideally one may only need the PS in the primary, and one essay highlighting the applicant's personal experiences for the secondary.

 

[chssoccer7]

I agree with what everyone is saying here, that MCAT should be part of the evaluation process. What I was concerned is the trend to de-emphasize its importance. Actually, what troubles me more is the essay requirements in the secondary. Applying to ~ 30 schools literally requires about two months of full time work. Applicants with lower socioeconomic backgrounds are less likely to have the time and resources, e.g. having friends or parents who can proofread or paying for consults to do them, for these essays. The worst offender among the top 20 schools is probably Duke. I heard of multiple applicants who skipped on Duke secondary because of the essays. Ideally one may only need the PS in the primary, and one essay highlighting the applicant's personal experiences for the secondary.

I'm not sure where you got that number, but assuming 40 hours/week, for 2 months that is 320 hours. If you're spending >10 hours/secondary, there's an issue in your process somewhere. I did ~15 applications, they definitely did not take me 10 hours a piece. None of my secondaries took more than 1-2 hours. Most secondary prompts are pretty similar, once you've written 4-5 of them you've written the backbone of 99% of your secondaries. I also did not have anyone other than myself proofread my secondaries nor do I know of any of my friends who did.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I agree with what everyone is saying here, that MCAT should be part of the evaluation process. What I was concerned is the trend to de-emphasize its importance. Actually, what troubles me more is the essay requirements in the secondary. Applying to ~ 30 schools literally requires about two months of full time work. Applicants with lower socioeconomic backgrounds are less likely to have the time and resources, e.g. having friends or parents who can proofread or paying for consults to do them, for these essays. The worst offender among the top 20 schools is probably Duke. I heard of multiple applicants who skipped on Duke secondary because of the essays. Ideally one may only need the PS in the primary, and one essay highlighting the applicant's personal experiences for the secondary.

Not with GenAI... but I digress. That's also why we have volunteer PS readers on these forums and I'm sure other places.

Duke undergrad no longer "scores" their admissions essays as part of their selection process so it can opt for a more holistic, qualitative assessment.

I can't argue otherwise. Most other health professions programs require 1 PS and some other context essays. In some cases, all you need is a transcript and a pulse.

Duke's secondaries are always carefully written to pose deeper critical thinking and motivation. As an advisor, I had many of my applicants run through the Duke secondary (or similar) for a committee letter. They also change their prompts. That's why you need to write your secondaries first.

 

[HappyRabbit]

College admissions are quite different from med school / residency selection - I recommend reading this report by Dartmouth which explains the logic behind the changes.

TL;DR - The move to test-optional was to increase the representation of low SES and disadvantaged students in their undergraduate class. However, applicants from these backgrounds who had competitive enough scores for admission (but not as high as the school's median) thought they would be more competitive by not submitting their ACT/SAT scores. Applicants would then be rejected when they would have been accepted if they submitted the scores, so schools were missing out on students they wanted to accept and actively tried to recruit.

 

[jhmmd]

I agree with what everyone is saying here, that MCAT should be part of the evaluation process. What I was concerned is the trend to de-emphasize its importance. Actually, what troubles me more is the essay requirements in the secondary. Applying to ~ 30 schools literally requires about two months of full time work. Applicants with lower socioeconomic backgrounds are less likely to have the time and resources, e.g. having friends or parents who can proofread or paying for consults to do them, for these essays. The worst offender among the top 20 schools is probably Duke. I heard of multiple applicants who skipped on Duke secondary because of the essays. Ideally one may only need the PS in the primary, and one essay highlighting the applicant's personal experiences for the secondary.

The MCAT and Step 1 are not going away; like how they are scored or not. Secondaries aren't as bad as they sound.

/my $.02

 

[tompremed]

I'm not sure where you got that number, but assuming 40 hours/week, for 2 months that is 320 hours. If you're spending >10 hours/secondary, there's an issue in your process somewhere. I did ~15 applications, they definitely did not take me 10 hours a piece. None of my secondaries took more than 1-2 hours. Most secondary prompts are pretty similar, once you've written 4-5 of them you've written the backbone of 99% of your secondaries. I also did not have anyone other than myself proofread my secondaries nor do I know of any of my friends who did.

From your registration date, I am guessing you were applying to Med school almost ten years ago. Not sure what it was like then, but look at the below Duke essay prompts. Tell me that you can do this in 1-2 hours! For an applicant with a full-time job, it will be lucky if he/she can finish one essay in one day (3-4 hours = one hour for planning, one hour writing, 0.5 hour revising to word limit, 0.5-1 hour revising after comments from friends/advisers). So it would have taken at least one week just to finish this secondary. I know two people, both pretty good writers (current medical student in HMS and VP&S, respectively), decided to skip finishing this because they were too exhausted to do it. True many schools have similarly essay prompts. But they usually have different word limits, and it could take easily one hour per essay to revise to fit the word limit, for nearly identical prompt.

"I also did not have anyone other than myself proofread my secondaries nor do I know of any of my friends who did." - my point is exactly that applicants from better backgrounds, eg with friends and/or hired advisers and with more time, could afford to spend more effort on essays and therefore to be more advantaged over applicants with less resources. I.e. requiring so many essays in 2ndary may actually create more inequalities than the standard testing does.

2023-2024 Duke Secondary Prompts

1. Tell us Who You Are: Share with us your story. This is your opportunity to allow us to know how you wish to be addressed, recognized and treated. (500 words)

2. Working with Others: Trust and rapport are essential in your day-to-day interactions with people. How do you cultivate a relationship with a person who may be very different from you? (400 words)

3. Advocacy: Describe a situation in which you chose to advocate for someone who was different from you or for a cause or idea that was different from yours. Define your view of advocacy. What risks, if any, might be associated with your choice to be an advocate? (400 words)

4. Coping with Disappointment: Not achieving a goal or one’s desire can sometimes be disheartening. What have you discovered from your setbacks and disappointments and how does this translate to your current way of thinking? (400 words)

5. Leadership: What do you value most as a leader and as a contributor? What attributes do you possess as a leader and as a team member and how do you apply them on a daily basis? (400 words)

6. Critical Thinking: Critical thinking involves a number of characteristics. Research experience enhances critical analysis skills. Describe any research experience or similar experience in which you utilized critical thinking. How will critical thinking be important in your future career? (400 words)

7. Understanding the Need for Healthcare Changes: Potential sources of health inequities exist. Duke’s Moments to Movement (M2M) is a collective stand to address these issues. Discuss your experience with disparities in health, health care and society. (400 words)

8. COVID-19 Implications: How has the COVID-19 pandemic influenced your journey to medical school? Have these events changed your outlook on medicine’s role in society? (400 words)

9. Further Information: Please let us know of any additional information that you would like us to consider while reviewing your application

 

[pablo213]

From your registration date, I am guessing you were applying to Med school almost ten years ago. Not sure what it was like then, but look at the below Duke essay prompts. Tell me that you can do this in 1-2 hours! For an applicant with a full-time job, it will be lucky if he/she can finish one essay in one day (3-4 hours = one hour for planning, one hour writing, 0.5 hour revising to word limit, 0.5-1 hour revising after comments from friends/advisers). So it would have taken at least one week just to finish this secondary. I know two people, both pretty good writers (current medical student in HMS and VP&S, respectively), decided to skip finishing this because they were too exhausted to do it. True many schools have similarly essay prompts. But they usually have different word limits, and it could take easily one hour per essay to revise to fit the word limit, for nearly identical prompt.

"I also did not have anyone other than myself proofread my secondaries nor do I know of any of my friends who did." - my point is exactly that applicants from better backgrounds, eg with friends and/or hired advisers and with more time, could afford to spend more effort on essays and therefore to be more advantaged over applicants with less resources. I.e. requiring so many essays in 2ndary may actually create more inequalities than the standard testing does.

2023-2024 Duke Secondary Prompts

1. Tell us Who You Are: Share with us your story. This is your opportunity to allow us to know how you wish to be addressed, recognized and treated. (500 words)

2. Working with Others: Trust and rapport are essential in your day-to-day interactions with people. How do you cultivate a relationship with a person who may be very different from you? (400 words)

3. Advocacy: Describe a situation in which you chose to advocate for someone who was different from you or for a cause or idea that was different from yours. Define your view of advocacy. What risks, if any, might be associated with your choice to be an advocate? (400 words)

4. Coping with Disappointment: Not achieving a goal or one’s desire can sometimes be disheartening. What have you discovered from your setbacks and disappointments and how does this translate to your current way of thinking? (400 words)

5. Leadership: What do you value most as a leader and as a contributor? What attributes do you possess as a leader and as a team member and how do you apply them on a daily basis? (400 words)

6. Critical Thinking: Critical thinking involves a number of characteristics. Research experience enhances critical analysis skills. Describe any research experience or similar experience in which you utilized critical thinking. How will critical thinking be important in your future career? (400 words)

7. Understanding the Need for Healthcare Changes: Potential sources of health inequities exist. Duke’s Moments to Movement (M2M) is a collective stand to address these issues. Discuss your experience with disparities in health, health care and society. (400 words)

8. COVID-19 Implications: How has the COVID-19 pandemic influenced your journey to medical school? Have these events changed your outlook on medicine’s role in society? (400 words)

9. Further Information: Please let us know of any additional information that you would like us to consider while reviewing your application

Getting some traumatic flashbacks rn 😖

 

[RoamingTexan]

From your registration date, I am guessing you were applying to Med school almost ten years ago. Not sure what it was like then, but look at the below Duke essay prompts. Tell me that you can do this in 1-2 hours! For an applicant with a full-time job, it will be lucky if he/she can finish one essay in one day (3-4 hours = one hour for planning, one hour writing, 0.5 hour revising to word limit, 0.5-1 hour revising after comments from friends/advisers). So it would have taken at least one week just to finish this secondary. I know two people, both pretty good writers (current medical student in HMS and VP&S, respectively), decided to skip finishing this because they were too exhausted to do it. True many schools have similarly essay prompts. But they usually have different word limits, and it could take easily one hour per essay to revise to fit the word limit, for nearly identical prompt.

"I also did not have anyone other than myself proofread my secondaries nor do I know of any of my friends who did." - my point is exactly that applicants from better backgrounds, eg with friends and/or hired advisers and with more time, could afford to spend more effort on essays and therefore to be more advantaged over applicants with less resources. I.e. requiring so many essays in 2ndary may actually create more inequalities than the standard testing does.

2023-2024 Duke Secondary Prompts

1. Tell us Who You Are: Share with us your story. This is your opportunity to allow us to know how you wish to be addressed, recognized and treated. (500 words)

2. Working with Others: Trust and rapport are essential in your day-to-day interactions with people. How do you cultivate a relationship with a person who may be very different from you? (400 words)

3. Advocacy: Describe a situation in which you chose to advocate for someone who was different from you or for a cause or idea that was different from yours. Define your view of advocacy. What risks, if any, might be associated with your choice to be an advocate? (400 words)

4. Coping with Disappointment: Not achieving a goal or one’s desire can sometimes be disheartening. What have you discovered from your setbacks and disappointments and how does this translate to your current way of thinking? (400 words)

5. Leadership: What do you value most as a leader and as a contributor? What attributes do you possess as a leader and as a team member and how do you apply them on a daily basis? (400 words)

6. Critical Thinking: Critical thinking involves a number of characteristics. Research experience enhances critical analysis skills. Describe any research experience or similar experience in which you utilized critical thinking. How will critical thinking be important in your future career? (400 words)

7. Understanding the Need for Healthcare Changes: Potential sources of health inequities exist. Duke’s Moments to Movement (M2M) is a collective stand to address these issues. Discuss your experience with disparities in health, health care and society. (400 words)

8. COVID-19 Implications: How has the COVID-19 pandemic influenced your journey to medical school? Have these events changed your outlook on medicine’s role in society? (400 words)

9. Further Information: Please let us know of any additional information that you would like us to consider while reviewing your application

Duke's prompts are a little infamous for being long-winded and unique, but I still think if you are taking 3-4 hours per essay, you're spending way too much time on it. I also think the majority of these essays are common themes that could be easily adapted from other secondaries.

To your point about some people having extra resources and ultimately an advantage in the process, I 100% agree. Honestly, I don't know how you fix that though. No matter what you decide to emphasize in admissions (MCAT, GPA, essays, experiences, interviews, etc...) people with more resources are going to have a bigger advantage. It's never going to be a truly even playing field, but the subjective aspects of an application, like secondaries, are where I think people with fewer resources can explain their stories and make up that ground.

 

[chssoccer7]

From your registration date, I am guessing you were applying to Med school almost ten years ago. Not sure what it was like then, but look at the below Duke essay prompts.

That would be incorrect. I applied this most recent cycle. My registration date is from when I became interested in switching careers and wanted to learn more about the path to medicine.

Your point about Duke's secondary specifically is good, it's an egregiously long secondary for whatever reason. My point, however, was that the overwhelming majority of secondaries are not like Duke. Out of the 15 schools I applied to, none of them had secondaries like Duke and I was able to finish all of them within 2 hours each.

As far as pre-meds from rich backgrounds etc. having more resources for proofreading and writing essays, that's fair but I don't know how you really get rid of that if you require any essay at all. I will say though that there are resources for free that can be used. I've personally proofread somewhere between 5-10 PS's for this upcoming cycle from the thread on this forum for volunteer proofreaders, and there have been dozens of other volunteers reading for free as well.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

2023-2024 Duke Secondary Prompts

1. Tell us Who You Are: Share with us your story. This is your opportunity to allow us to know how you wish to be addressed, recognized and treated. (500 words)

2. Working with Others: Trust and rapport are essential in your day-to-day interactions with people. How do you cultivate a relationship with a person who may be very different from you? (400 words)

3. Advocacy: Describe a situation in which you chose to advocate for someone who was different from you or for a cause or idea that was different from yours. Define your view of advocacy. What risks, if any, might be associated with your choice to be an advocate? (400 words)

4. Coping with Disappointment: Not achieving a goal or one’s desire can sometimes be disheartening. What have you discovered from your setbacks and disappointments and how does this translate to your current way of thinking? (400 words)

5. Leadership: What do you value most as a leader and as a contributor? What attributes do you possess as a leader and as a team member and how do you apply them on a daily basis? (400 words)

6. Critical Thinking: Critical thinking involves a number of characteristics. Research experience enhances critical analysis skills. Describe any research experience or similar experience in which you utilized critical thinking. How will critical thinking be important in your future career? (400 words)

7. Understanding the Need for Healthcare Changes: Potential sources of health inequities exist. Duke’s Moments to Movement (M2M) is a collective stand to address these issues. Discuss your experience with disparities in health, health care and society. (400 words)

8. COVID-19 Implications: How has the COVID-19 pandemic influenced your journey to medical school? Have these events changed your outlook on medicine’s role in society? (400 words)

9. Further Information: Please let us know of any additional information that you would like us to consider while reviewing your application

Obligatory pitch: Becoming a Student Doctor can help with the terminology and ideas to identify your strengths that address the prompts. You can't wait until the process starts to have the framework to tackle these prompts, but if you spend time thinking about these things for a few weeks or months in advance as you are pre-writing, you'll get closer to an optimal response for yourself.

1, 8, and 9 should be ready with pre-writing secondaries. You may have to adjust with length, but you should expect these prompts.

The other prompts address specific competencies and attitudes that you should expect to answer in your interviews. Leadership (5) is an MME essay. Advocacy (7) is a curricular value of the program if you want to show mission fit from your own experiences.

In short, don't be intimidated by the "obstacle course" of prompts. If this is a place where you want to go, you will find your answers to address it. In a way, Duke is selecting people it wants (and gets) before you approach their MMI interviews.

 

[eigen]

Tbh I think the MCAT has been and continues to be the most important part of one's application.

I strongly disagree with this, as stated.

The most important part of ones application is your narrative on why you want to go into medicine coupled to a strong display of experiences (esp. clinical experience) that show you've demonstrated a commitment. MCAT is very, very far behind that in importance.

But, this thread opens up a lot of missing nuance around MCAT. I tell my students to consider it a "step" function. A particularly low MCAT score can absolutely keep you out of schools, just like a red flag on anything else: sub 3.0 GPA, missing clinical experience, not having any community service work, no narrative in your documents. But *increasing* your MCAT scores, for most schools, shows diminishing returns past roughly 60th percentile, at least for my students, compared to other uses of their time. Certainly some schools that care a lot about it.

Unlike SAT scores, the MCAT correlates well, and uniquely, to success in medical school. And more importantly, it correlates to standardized exams (STEP, for example) while college students don't have mandatory standardized steps at the end. As such, the ability to perform well on timed, standardized tests *is* an important facet of medical school admissions in a way it's not for college.

SAT scores have a really, really poor general correlation to success in college, especially success past 1st year GPA. When combined with HS GPA, it gets better, but both correlate strongly to income and zip code as well, and both income and zip code also correlate strongly with college success.

But I notice a lot of black or white discussions of MCAT scores here, when really they're an important piece of information that isn't the most important part of a medical school application, namely because MCAT scores only show whether you can succeed in medical school: they don't show what kind of a doctor you're going to become. For medical schools, having you not fail is important, but having graduates who go out to be successful doctors who meet the needs of their communities is far more important, and MCAT scores don't have any real bearing on those.

De-emphasizing MCAT scores, IMO, is a good approach. You need to know that a student has the academic background to be successful in medical school, and MCAT scores do a decent job of this, along with GPA. But they don't give the "rest" of the information that's super important to display.

The worries about the importance of ghost-written essays, for example, are something to consider, but it's rarely just the essay that has the impact: it's the essay in conjunction with the activities a student has actually done. In other words, it's not just about what you say but what you've *shown*.

As to writing essay prompts, one thing students should keep strongly in mind as they choose where they go for undergrad is the degree of support. I devote around 10-30 hours per applicant each Spring and Summer working with them on this, and we guarantee support to alumni for as many years as they need it after graduation. But also... the number of my advisees who skip taking a lot of humanities based writing classes find secondary prompts a lot harder, because they don't have the strong framework in this type of work that they could if they took a lot more humanities classes, especially those that are writing centered. Writing quickly and skillfully is something that can be developed, and there are a lot of ways to do it "free" during college by your class selections.

 

[jhmmd]

MCAT score strongly correlates to USMLE score. What people take issue with is how tests are administered, e.g. asking one's race or gender prior to the test. You have to be
a. Smart
b. Good at taking tests
c. Good at medicine
in order to be a good doctor. There is no way around it. Way too many tests.

You also MUST be kind. There are lots of people who have the smarts but simply do not care. The process tends to weed these people out.

Edited to add: USMLE scores are how schools become and remain accredited. There is no way around a benchmark/metric in order to make sure that the right people are in med school. tldr; MCAT matters.

 

[LizzyM]

Okay, I'lll out myself and say that I'm not at Duke and I don't have a say in the phrasing of secondary questions on my school's application.

That said, I could see where Duke's strategy might be to weed out applicants before they even submit a secondary by making the secondary more onerous than most to be sure that applicants are serious about Duke. Not making a value judgment about that but when schools are a reach for many and a safety for some (insert eyeroll here) schools will do all sorts of things to bring the number of applicants down to something reasonable.

 

[pablo213]

The most important part of ones application is your narrative on why you want to go into medicine coupled to a strong display of experiences (esp. clinical experience) that show you've demonstrated a commitment. MCAT is very, very far behind that in importance.
But, this thread opens up a lot of missing nuance around MCAT. I tell my students to consider it a "step" function. A particularly low MCAT score can absolutely keep you out of schools, just like a red flag on anything else: sub 3.0 GPA, missing clinical experience, not having any community service work, no narrative in your documents. But *increasing* your MCAT scores, for most schools, shows diminishing returns past roughly 60th percentile, at least for my students, compared to other uses of their time. Certainly some schools that care a lot about it.

I think we have similar things in mind and i largely agree with everything you say after this. From a general med school admissions POV, once your MCAT score passes a certain threshold, your narrative and how that is expressed w/ supporting activities becomes more important.

However, the very fact that the MCAT serves as a step function is why I said it's the most important. It gets you in the door. This becomes particularly highlighted at T20s. At lower ranked schools there's more give and the threshold lowers, but a certain score is still required to not have your app tossed. The other examples you listed can all be improved consistently over time. You can take a gap year to add missing activities that fill the deficiencies, help your narrative, and take post Bacc or SMP to help your GPA (obviously hard if you have 200 credits at <3.0 but given enough time or upper trends, etc.). The IA example is fair, though based on what I've seen here, they don't preclude admission unless very severe (equivalent to like a 480 MCAT).

On the other hand, if the MCAT is the issue, not much can be done. Most people score within 3 points of their MCAT or below that range after re-attempts. This isn't seen as often now that there are DO and "low-high tier" MD, but in theory still applies.

 

[tompremed]

I strongly disagree with this, as stated.

The most important part of ones application is your narrative on why you want to go into medicine coupled to a strong display of experiences (esp. clinical experience) that show you've demonstrated a commitment. MCAT is very, very far behind that in importance.

But, this thread opens up a lot of missing nuance around MCAT. I tell my students to consider it a "step" function. A particularly low MCAT score can absolutely keep you out of schools, just like a red flag on anything else: sub 3.0 GPA, missing clinical experience, not having any community service work, no narrative in your documents. But *increasing* your MCAT scores, for most schools, shows diminishing returns past roughly 60th percentile, at least for my students, compared to other uses of their time. Certainly some schools that care a lot about it.

Unlike SAT scores, the MCAT correlates well, and uniquely, to success in medical school. And more importantly, it correlates to standardized exams (STEP, for example) while college students don't have mandatory standardized steps at the end. As such, the ability to perform well on timed, standardized tests *is* an important facet of medical school admissions in a way it's not for college.

SAT scores have a really, really poor general correlation to success in college, especially success past 1st year GPA. When combined with HS GPA, it gets better, but both correlate strongly to income and zip code as well, and both income and zip code also correlate strongly with college success.

But I notice a lot of black or white discussions of MCAT scores here, when really they're an important piece of information that isn't the most important part of a medical school application, namely because MCAT scores only show whether you can succeed in medical school: they don't show what kind of a doctor you're going to become. For medical schools, having you not fail is important, but having graduates who go out to be successful doctors who meet the needs of their communities is far more important, and MCAT scores don't have any real bearing on those.

De-emphasizing MCAT scores, IMO, is a good approach. You need to know that a student has the academic background to be successful in medical school, and MCAT scores do a decent job of this, along with GPA. But they don't give the "rest" of the information that's super important to display.

The worries about the importance of ghost-written essays, for example, are something to consider, but it's rarely just the essay that has the impact: it's the essay in conjunction with the activities a student has actually done. In other words, it's not just about what you say but what you've *shown*.

As to writing essay prompts, one thing students should keep strongly in mind as they choose where they go for undergrad is the degree of support. I devote around 10-30 hours per applicant each Spring and Summer working with them on this, and we guarantee support to alumni for as many years as they need it after graduation. But also... the number of my advisees who skip taking a lot of humanities based writing classes find secondary prompts a lot harder, because they don't have the strong framework in this type of work that they could if they took a lot more humanities classes, especially those that are writing centered. Writing quickly and skillfully is something that can be developed, and there are a lot of ways to do it "free" during college by your class selections.

'SAT scores have a really, really poor general correlation to success in college, especially success past 1st year GPA. When combined with HS GPA, it gets better, but both correlate strongly to income and zip code as well, and both income and zip code also correlate strongly with college success."

NY Times and President of Brown disagree with you on this -

The Misguided War on the SAT

Colleges have fled standardized tests, on the theory that they hurt diversity. That’s not what the research shows.

www.nytimes.com

To Test or Not to Test

A letter from the President

www.brownalumnimagazine.com

"And standardized test scores are a much better predictor of academic success than high school grades"

Source: Friedman, Sacerdote and Tine | Data from the entering classes of 2017 to 2022, excluding 2020. | By The New York Times

 

[tompremed]

Duke's prompts are a little infamous for being long-winded and unique, but I still think if you are taking 3-4 hours per essay, you're spending way too much time on it. I also think the majority of these essays are common themes that could be easily adapted from other secondaries.

To your point about some people having extra resources and ultimately an advantage in the process, I 100% agree. Honestly, I don't know how you fix that though. No matter what you decide to emphasize in admissions (MCAT, GPA, essays, experiences, interviews, etc...) people with more resources are going to have a bigger advantage. It's never going to be a truly even playing field, but the subjective aspects of an application, like secondaries, are where I think people with fewer resources can explain their stories and make up that ground.

One solution could be to have just two essays. One may be a biographic essay: why do you want to be a doctor/what have you done to prepare for it/how are you planning to serve/advance medicine. This is basically the PS. The second one could be a short "why us".

 

[Mr.Smile12]

One solution could be to have just two essays. One may be a biographic essay: why do you want to be a doctor/what have you done to prepare for it/how are you planning to serve/advance medicine. This is basically the PS. The second one could be a short "why us".

Tongue in cheek response.:
In other words, be like everyone else, especially outside medicine where you are only asked these two questions.

I'm sure those who have to score and read the 9 essays would be happy. There is a reason why they don't make it easier (for themselves or applicants). Granted, written communication is a desired competency. As is resilience.

 

[jhmmd]

Tongue in cheek response.:
In other words, be like everyone else, especially outside medicine where you are only asked these two questions.

I'm sure those who have to score and read the 9 essays would be happy. There is a reason why they don't make it easier (for themselves or applicants). Granted, written communication is a desired competency. As is resilience.

And you know that if we designed a test that would test for these two things, people would still complain. So it goes.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

And you know that if we designed a test that would test for these two things, people would still complain. So it goes.

Darn straight. I lived through the MCAT Writing Sample era.

 

[RoamingTexan]

One solution could be to have just two essays. One may be a biographic essay: why do you want to be a doctor/what have you done to prepare for it/how are you planning to serve/advance medicine. This is basically the PS. The second one could be a short "why us".

But what does that really tell the school? The first one being basically the PS restated is redundant, and a "why us" essay is great for explaining why a school is a good fit for the applicant, but how does the school know the applicant is a good fit for them? Anecdotally, I got interviews more frequently at places that had more/longer secondaries because I had more room to talk about myself and the qualities I have. I didn't have anyone read my secondaries, but I still felt like it gave me an edge over someone that doesn't have my experiences to draw from.

 

[eigen]

'SAT scores have a really, really poor general correlation to success in college, especially success past 1st year GPA. When combined with HS GPA, it gets better, but both correlate strongly to income and zip code as well, and both income and zip code also correlate strongly with college success."

NY Times and President of Brown disagree with you on this -

The Misguided War on the SAT

Colleges have fled standardized tests, on the theory that they hurt diversity. That’s not what the research shows.

www.nytimes.com

To Test or Not to Test

A letter from the President

www.brownalumnimagazine.com

"And standardized test scores are a much better predictor of academic success than high school grades"

View attachment 385527
Source: Friedman, Sacerdote and Tine | Data from the entering classes of 2017 to 2022, excluding 2020. | By The New York Times

Did you actually read the data they're pulling that plot from? Because there's a lot excellent discussion on why that NYT data display is a very misleading view of the data, and the actual data from Friedman is not nearly as convincing.

For some reading on the topic that's considered a lot better view of it, from people who both do educational research and are the ones in higher education dealing with the students that come in...

https://jonboeckenstedt.net/2024/01/07/aw-jeez-not-this-****-again/

From the latter thread, lets look at the actual data distribution rather than the creatively cleaned data NYT provides by using binned means for the data they plot.

Now lets look at the correlation coefficients and how good the actual fit is. Note the R2 value (while not always my favorite way to assess fit) is 0.193. That means that only a tiny fraction of Y variation is explained by the X variation.

Now lets look at some experiments with the data. We can consider SAT alone, HSGPA alone, both together, or both in the context of other information admissions offices have, like URM status, gender and family income level. When you do that, SAT scores lose predictive power and HSGPA gains predictive power, both being roughly equal. But even then, the correlation coefficient is fractional: 0.1! That means neither has any real predictive power. Moreover, where a student went to HS has twice the predictive power of either SAT or HSGPA.

 

[Kakegawa]

Same as SAT, the contents are all covered in the courses taken. If a student can get all As, there is no reason that the same student cannot do well in MCAT. If so, that means either the student has not put in enough work for MCAT, or the As are questionable. Most students don't take tutoring but still get high scores. There are just so many execuses for those who don't do well. Sorry, it's just that simple.

 

[jhmmd]

^^excellent work
Esp. health-related reasons. That's my pet peeve because it's so many people's reason for going into medical school in the first place. Don't blame a ghost for your lupus. Don't blame your terrible grades on your grandpa. At some point, the onus is on you.

 

[eigen]

Same as SAT, the contents are all covered in the courses taken.

I would say this is true of the MCAT, but not the SAT.

MCAT is a content test: it examines proficiency in specific content areas needed to succeed in a course of study.

The SAT is considered a "general intelligence" test. It doesn't test specific areas of content needed for a student to succeed in college, and there isn't a direct correlation of classes taken in HS to material covered on the exam.

 

[jhmmd]

I would say this is true of the MCAT, but not the SAT.

MCAT is a content test: it examines proficiency in specific content areas needed to succeed in a course of study.

The SAT is considered a "general intelligence" test. It doesn't test specific areas of content needed for a student to succeed in college, and there isn't a direct correlation of classes taken in HS to material covered on the exam.

The MCAT tests if you can apply what you know. I feel like there's a misunderstanding here.

 

[eigen]

The MCAT tests if you can apply what you know. I feel like there's a misunderstanding here.

I would disagree with that, personally, at least in the content I teach where I feel comfortable assessing assessments.

IMO, at least the chemistry and biochemistry contents are straight up testing "what you know", not "if you can apply what you know". The latter usually requires a context change relative to how the material was learned, for example to solve a problem in a different domain.

Can you elaborate on why you feel like the MCAT tests applications of knowledge rather than the underlying knowledge?

 

[jhmmd]

I would disagree with that, personally, at least in the content I teach where I feel comfortable assessing assessments.

IMO, at least the chemistry and biochemistry contents are straight up testing "what you know", not "if you can apply what you know". The latter usually requires a context change relative to how the material was learned, for example to solve a problem in a different domain.

Can you elaborate on why you feel like the MCAT tests applications of knowledge rather than the underlying knowledge?

"Context change" is another way of saying "apply what you know" [to another context].

 

[eigen]

"Context change" is another way of saying "apply what you know" [to another context].

And yes, those are the same. My point is the MCAT doesn't change context: it's straight up content, not application.

 

[jhmmd]

My point is the MCAT doesn't change context: it's straight up content, not application.

Nobody said that the MCAT "changes context."

 

[Goro]

Tongue in cheek response.:
In other words, be like everyone else, especially outside medicine where you are only asked these two questions.

I'm sure those who have to score and read the 9 essays would be happy. There is a reason why they don't make it easier (for themselves or applicants). Granted, written communication is a desired competency. As is resilience.

And time management!!!

 

[eigen]

Nobody said that the MCAT "changes context."

You claimed that the MCAT tests "application of knowledge", not "content knowledge" and that I was misinformed. I replied that in my experience, for something to test "application of knowledge", you need to be applying the knowledge in a new context outside of where it's learned. Pedagogically, I would consider the MCAT not a test of knowledge application for that reason.

 

[Moko]

Moderator Note:

Multiple posts in this thread have been edited and/or deleted to avoid sidetracking the discussion. I have tried my best to preserve the on-topic parts of the discussion (though probably done poorly).

Please note that we welcome discussions and opposing opinions on SDN, but do not allow for behaviors against our terms of service (including but not limited to derailing threads). If you disagree with another user's post and/or have an alternative viewpoint, please post your thoughts while addressing other users in a respectful manner. It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

Thank you for your time, and here's a picture to help bring down the temperature a bit in this thread.

 

[Alejandro]

Hm. Sorry I'm late to the party.

my .02: It is a weed out game, but just consider what it is on the other side of the table. If you've ever been the hiring manager for a job, for example, there are lots of similiarities to being an adcom. You get like 200+ applications...how do you expect to hire 1 or 2 people? Gotta set up some metrics to satisfy to help whittle down the applicant pool. If you expect to holistically entertain EVERY application, then clearly you haven't done this type of work before. Tests unfortunately suck. Even I struggled on tests in med school and I hated them. That said, knowing what I know about being a hiring manager and even being on admissions, I get that its often the only way it is going to work, simply because there are just too many applicants and you somehow gotta bring that number down to make it actually worth digesting.