Since I plan to go into psychiatry, should I major in psychology?

[PreMed86]

I'm starting my first college semester this month and I'm still thinking about a major. After learning on the other board that I should major in something that I enjoy, I was able to narrow my choices down, and psychology is one of them. Would majoring in psychology be a good pre-med choice? Thanks a lot.

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[BeckyG]

I think that as you start college, you should really just try out different things and see what you like. In the end, your major does not matter as much as how you do in your classes. Thus, the recommendation to choose a major that is interesting to you is assuming that you will do well in that major. Don't choose psychology solely because you are thinking about psychiatry. I was a biochem major and am going into psych. My roommate who was a psychology major is going into internal medicine. Friends who were history majors are going into surgery. Bottom line, take the minimum science requirements you need, do well in them, and then study/major in whatever is the most interesting to you. Hope that helps!

 

[purpledoc]

I'm starting my first college semester this month and I'm still thinking about a major. After learning on the other board that I should major in something that I enjoy, I was able to narrow my choices down, and psychology is one of them. Would majoring in psychology be a good pre-med choice? Thanks a lot.

I think it's a great choice. Let me make a disclaimer, which is that I chose to major in psychobiology, which let me count premed courses as part of the requirements, letting me take elective classes in things like medieval Spanish literature.

Unfortunately, it is entirely possible to complete a four-yr psychiatry residency and never have heard of Stanley Milgram's obedience studies (see http://www.new-life.net/milgram.htm, if you haven't heard of him), read a book by Skinner, or learned Carol Gilligan's theories on the moral development of women. Therefore, I consider a psychology undergraduate major -- or extensive reading and self-study -- to be a basic foundation which no psychiatrist should be without, and which every doctor should seriously consider.

It will help you to understand basic truths about human behavior, so that you can then temper the medical and diagnostic skills you learn in medical school with a firm grounding in not pathologizing the individual.

For fun, the Milgram obedience song: http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/~wegner/music.htm

 

[gaki]

ohoh what else do you think a psychiatrist-to-be should study in school or on their own that residencies might not cover?

 

[Svas]

Get a Biology or Chemistry major and a psych minor. Make sure you take the History and Systems course (my favorite . . . not because it's critical . It's a review of the philosophy underpinning the development of psychology as a field.)



Svas

ohoh what else do you think a psychiatrist-to-be should study in school or on their own that residencies might not cover?

 

[PublicHealth]

ohoh what else do you think a psychiatrist-to-be should study in school or on their own that residencies might not cover?

Enjoy your college experience! It's probably the only time in your life that you'll be able to explore a diverse range of courses. Also take some time to get involved in research and extracurricular activities, join some clubs, and have fun!

 

[Thewonderer]

IF you want to go to med school and become a psychiatrist, then you should major in anything you like.

IF you want to go through the clinical psychology route, you might need to major in psychology (this, I am not 100% sure).

 

[gaki]

oh, you are all so nice to respond.

svas -
I am still leaning much more towards psychiatry (though I will take into consideration your warnings about going into it). One of the things I liked about the idea of going into psychology though, that I thought I would miss out on if I chose psychiatry was opportunities to participate in research. But I have since found out that people in MD programs often have the chance to get an MD with recognition in research (not referring to MD-PhD though.. isnt that more for people who want to be professors?).. and I'm assuming that there are also opportunities to take part in research in psychiatry residencies. If I am wrong about this, please set me straight.
I was thinking of going with a psychology degree "on paper" (instead of biology or physics) because its a subject I like, and I wanted to have access to research opportunities with undergrad psych faculty I *think* would be unavailable to me otherwise..I am hoping this is a good step for me to take considering what I want to participate in later. I don't think I am going to stay long enough to actually complete a second degree anyway. What do you think about this plan?
I was wondering if I should take that psych "history and systems" class, and now since its been recommended, I think I will.

PublicHealth - thanks for the feedback.. since I am a midlife career changer I am hoping my general life experiences and previous internships will compensate for a little bit of slacking in extracurricular while I go back to school this fall. Heehee

Thewonderer - actually when I was looking at clinical psych programs earlier, it didn't look like most of them required a psych major. Having a "broad general background" in psych was often recommended but not required. When a PhD program did require anything it looked like it tended to be a few very specific psych classes, like 101, abnormal, personality, and history and systems, or some stuff like that.
Also, even though I know that to get into medical school specifically your undergrad major really doesnt matter.. but you have never heard of interest in psychology informally giving a boost to psychiatrist wanna be's? Like as some kind of indication of a sureness of direction or something that med schools might find appealing? Or do med school admissions really not care if you already know what you want to do after med school?

Thanks folks.

 

[kcrd]

Gaki, as a fellow career-changer (I started medical school 8 years after I graduated undergraduate), I would push you towards psychology, rather than psychiatry, if you think you'd be happy with either. I went into medical school thinking I would do primary care, but realized that I loved psych after my 3rd year rotation, so I am planning on applying for psych residencies. When I decided to apply to medical school, I didn't realize just how hard it would be, in terms of workload and time commitment. I think it is especially hard if you have a spouse and family. I don't know too much about psych doctoral programs, but I cannot imagine they have anything as close to the grueling experience that you would have in your 3rd year surgery and ob/gyn rotations (or even your medicine rotation, for that matter). I do not regret medical school, but realize that if you choose psychiatry, you would be choosing a harder road (8 years of rigourous training vs 4).

 

[Big Lebowski]

The undergraduate major you choose should be something you're very interested in. If you really like psychology, then major in psychology. If you have other interests, then consider those. Most med students tend to major in bio, chem, biochem, physiology; but there are plenty of economic, history, business majors that I know who went to and successful completed medical school. I wouldn't pass up the opportunity to pursue something of genuine interest, and you may find that your career plans change as you go through college.

If you do decide to choose a major in psychology, there would be some benefits as far as a career plan in psychiatry. Psychiatry residents in general do not get strong training in theory and psychoanalysis. A background in psychology would give you something to build on and you would probably have a leg up for the boards. Also, you'd have better understanding of the utility of devices such as psychological testing which would improve your relationship with some of your co-professionals. Also, it may help you solidify a career plan if you are waffling between psychiatry and psychology...

Good luck...

 

[dentite001]

Everyone probably has there favorite courses in undergrad. After majoring in psych, I can say that I probably had about a minor's worth of courses that I truly enjoyed. I found the following very rewarding:

Intro Psych
Developmental Psych
Psychopathology
Physiological Psychology
Introduction to Cognitive Science
Social Psychology
Intro Statistics
Research in Behavioural Neuroscience

Afterwards, the rest of the courses are redundant and taken just to fulfill requirments. There's a lot of feminist and affirmative action crap in psychology that will be completely useless to you unless your black, jewish and female. Sorry if that was not politically correct.
Hindsight would have had me take more biology courses. For example, I frequently here on the dental boards that students had wished they had taken histology, and anatomy during undergrad. Genetics might also be useful.

 

[wolfvgang22]

Gaki, as a fellow career-changer (I started medical school 8 years after I graduated undergraduate), I would push you towards psychology, rather than psychiatry, if you think you'd be happy with either. I went into medical school thinking I would do primary care, but realized that I loved psych after my 3rd year rotation, so I am planning on applying for psych residencies. When I decided to apply to medical school, I didn't realize just how hard it would be, in terms of workload and time commitment. I think it is especially hard if you have a spouse and family. I don't know too much about psych doctoral programs, but I cannot imagine they have anything as close to the grueling experience that you would have in your 3rd year surgery and ob/gyn rotations (or even your medicine rotation, for that matter). I do not regret medical school, but realize that if you choose psychiatry, you would be choosing a harder road (8 years of rigourous training vs 4).

On the other hand, psychology doesn't pay diddly squat compared to being a psychiatrist. And in some states (Texas, for one), the amount of education required to become a clinical psychologist is close to that needed to become a physician, in number of years.

I got my undergrad in psychology, because I loved it. I worked in a Mental Health clinic as part of the treatment team with psychiatrists. Made very little money, around 35K for 60+ hours a week. Then one day I saw the print-out of how much money everyone in the clinic made that the director left lying around. When I saw that the psychiatrist made 150k for 20 hours a week (only one of his 4 jobs), Right then, I decided I should go to medical school, since I did everything he did except physical exams and prescribe meds (though I had to correct him several times on incorrect dosages, and correct his progress notes all the time.)

It was stressful for me not being able to do what had to be done for a patient right then, when I saw a patient, and have to wait for the psychiatrist to ok a med change or an admission. As a physician, I'll get to do a more thorough job. So I left psychology for psychiatry.

 

[wolfvgang22]

Also, even though I know that to get into medical school specifically your undergrad major really doesnt matter.. but you have never heard of interest in psychology informally giving a boost to psychiatrist wanna be's? Like as some kind of indication of a sureness of direction or something that med schools might find appealing? Or do med school admissions really not care if you already know what you want to do after med school?

Thanks folks.

Well, if you are serious it might help you write your personal statement when you apply to med school, answering the dreaded "Why do you want to be a doctor", but otherwise it doesn't matter. Med schools know that you may change your mind about specialty four times between now and applying for residency. At that point, your well on you're practically graduated.

People used to say some med schools want to hear you say you want to do family practice, to meet a shortage in that area. I don't know if that's still true.

 

[gaki]

ohoh how far along med school are you? i read a post about someone who was in a similar situation to you, and thats why he switched to psychiatry. what can you tell about psychology training compared to psychiatry training as far as psychotherapies and even learning about theory is concerned? i have read more than once that psychiatrists are not good as good at psychotherapy, but I have also read that they can be as good. I know I have been asking these types of questions all over this forum, but what can a psychiatrist do to make sure they are also good therapists?

 

[wolfvgang22]

If you really want to consider yourself the "total package" as a psychiatrist, I think an undergrad degree in psychology would be a great start, especially if you get some experience in counseling. In medicine, you don't get any real counseling experience until you do your psychiatry rotation, and by then many students have decided everything is dependent on chemical and physical processes alone...it's a kind of tunnel vision.

It's about where the strength of the training is: for psychiatrists it's the brain, for psychologists the focus of training is the mind.They are, of course, inextricable from each other, as almost any psychiatrist or psychologist would tell you that the thing we call our mind (or consciousness) rises out of the machinery which is the brain. They influence each other, though.

If you are a psychiatrist you need to take it upon yourself to fill the gaps in your training regarding counseling to be good; as a psychologist you have to work to fill in for your lack of knoweldge of medicine, if you really want to be good. But that's what great professionals always have done; it's called continuing education. If you already have a strong background in psychology, you are a step ahead of most psychiatrists, you have fewer gaps in your education.

 

[Modnar]

Afterwards, the rest of the courses are redundant and taken just to fulfill requirments. There's a lot of feminist and affirmative action crap in psychology that will be completely useless to you unless your black, jewish and female. Sorry if that was not politically correct.

This actually varies a lot from school to school. I was a psych major as an undergrad, and while my school's psych department offered a lot of the "politically correct" classes, they also had a number of neuroscience classes as well as statistics and research methods classes. I took a lot of those and stayed away from the more PC stuff.

Oh and about getting counseling experience... in most states, you cannot counsel people unless you have a master's degree. It'd be more feasible to volunteer at a local mental hospital or for battered women's shelters, teen crisis centers - places where people need an ear to bend but not necessarily a professional counselor.

 

[PublicHealth]

If you are a psychiatrist you need to take it upon yourself to fill the gaps in your training regarding counseling to be good; as a psychologist you have to work to fill in for your lack of knoweldge of medicine, if you really want to be good. But that's what great professionals always have done; it's called continuing education. If you already have a strong background in psychology, you are a step ahead of most psychiatrists, you have fewer gaps in your education.

Exactly. This is, at least in part, why psychologists are seeking prescriptive rights. As many people browsing these forums already know, legislation giving psychologists the right to prescribe psychotropic medication has already been passed in New Mexico and Louisiana, with many other states considering it.

Here's the thread on this issue:

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=118082

 

[Kluver Bucy]

I'm starting my first college semester this month and I'm still thinking about a major. After learning on the other board that I should major in something that I enjoy, I was able to narrow my choices down, and psychology is one of them. Would majoring in psychology be a good pre-med choice? Thanks a lot.

Just get an education, and try not to be so vocational-minded. People adopt this trade-school mentality toward becoming doctors and then wonder why docs are being treated like plumbers and electricians.

 

[purpledoc]

On the other hand, psychology doesn't pay diddly squat compared to being a psychiatrist. <<SNIP>> When I saw that the psychiatrist made 150k for 20 hours a week (only one of his 4 jobs), Right then, I decided I should go to medical school...

$150K for 20 hours a week? At a mental health clinic? Bullhockey, unless your "clinic" was somewhere in Beverly Hills.

No psychiatrist makes $300,000/yr unless s/he is in private practice or head of an HMO. Psychiatrists employed by others generally make $100k, maybe up to $150k if you're a director of something. Even the ones making $300k in private practice (again, not a common experience) are paying overhead, paying for their own malpractice, life insurance, disability insurance, IRAs, etc.

Yeah, it's still more than psychologists, and unfairly so in many cases. But if anyone is reading this thinking that psychiatry will make them rich, I have only one recommendation: Dermatology.

 

[Sanman]

Originally posted by purpledoc
Yeah, it's still more than psychologists, and unfairly so in many cases. But if anyone is reading this thinking that psychiatry will make them rich, I have only one recommendation: Dermatology.

All the rads folks will groan if you don't mention radiology as well, for the time being.

 

[PublicHealth]

$150K for 20 hours a week? At a mental health clinic? Bullhockey, unless your "clinic" was somewhere in Beverly Hills.

No psychiatrist makes $300,000/yr unless s/he is in private practice or head of an HMO. Psychiatrists employed by others generally make $100k, maybe up to $150k if you're a director of something. Even the ones making $300k in private practice (again, not a common experience) are paying overhead, paying for their own malpractice, life insurance, disability insurance, IRAs, etc.

Yeah, it's still more than psychologists, and unfairly so in many cases. But if anyone is reading this thinking that psychiatry will make them rich, I have only one recommendation: Dermatology.

Psychiatrists working for pharmaceutical companies also make a pretty penny. I've heard that $200-250K is not uncommon. Of course, this setting is often plagued with "business bias."

 

[NubianPrincess]

If you major in Bio, phys or Chem you can get some great recs for med school from your science professors

 

[PublicHealth]

If you major in Bio, phys or Chem you can get some great recs for med school from your science professors

Unless you're joking, the OP should know that s/he can major in anything s/he wants and still get strong letters from science professors. You do still have to take the pre-reqs (bio, chem, orgo, physics) before you can apply to medical school. Therefore, you should have AT LEAST four people from whom to solicit recommendation letters. Most schools require letters from three people -- two science, one non-science -- or a committee letter.

 

[purpledoc]

Psychiatrists working for pharmaceutical companies also make a pretty penny. I've heard that $200-250K is not uncommon. Of course, this setting is often plagued with "business bias."

Darn it, you're right. I should have written:

No psychiatrist makes $300,000/yr unless s/he is in private practice, head of an HMO, or working for the devil.

Sorry about that.

 

[PublicHealth]

Darn it, you're right. I should have written:


Sorry about that.

LOL!

 

[gaki]

i described to him some of the things i have learned on this board, that psychiatrists sometimes have a reputation of not having a good scientific/research and psychology background. he agreed that this was the case, and thought that the research background would be good for psychiatrists to have, that they do tend to not cover in med school and residency. he suggested undergrads who know they want to go into psychiatry to take classes like experiemental design, statistics, experimental lab classes, etc. he even thought these types of classes would be better to take over other psychology electives (like social psych and such) because they are the foundation other topical or population oriented electives are built on. like having an understanding of the research methods will give you a better understanding of psychology topics in general. these types of classes, from what i have seen, tend to be *for psychology majors only*.. for this reason, if you think you would agree with what this prof has to say, you might want to major in psychology.

i should also note, that he does think other psychology electives are important and relevant for clinicians to know, but that the research-oriented classes would be like an important core to build up from.

also, if you are wondering about this profs point of view, he is a psychology person, not psychiatrist, who is very involved in behavioral-analysis and working with autistic kids and is very involved in research himself. so that might give a clue to any biases he might have.

anyway i just thought i would share this, in case someone would find it useful.