Transition from pre-PhD to pre-MD, graduating in 2 months

[premed2671]

Hi everyone,

I have contemplated becoming a doctor since I was 15 years old! I have tons of clinical experience from high school, but chose to pursue research (pre-PhD) in college. I’m a married woman turning 23 this year, and I still have a pull towards medicine that I can’t seem to shake. At a forum I attended last week, I listened to a women talk about her path to medicine, and a flood of memories came back about why I originally wanted to be a doctor… I was totally taken back with doubt if I made the right career choice. Not sure what to do about this!

Anyway, I am graduating in a couple of months and have a great full-time research job lined up. I originally planned to apply to PhD programs in December.

Some questions for all of you:

1. What would be the MOST helpful to quickly evaluate which path is right for me (PhD vs MD)? - shadowing or patient experience?
2. Considering my background below, what would I need to do to prepare my app besides take the MCAT?
3. Premed coursework: I have everything except ochem lab and biology lab. My research counted as lab experience, so I never needed to take them. Will I need to take them or would med schools make an exception?
4. Do you think I could realistically apply for the 2023-2024 cycle?

My husband is super supportive with whatever career I choose, which I am thankful for. We aren’t planning to have kids for several more years, but being a good (working) mom is also a consideration in my decision.

Thanks in advance for any advice! If you are uncomfortable commenting on this for any reason, send me a DM!



My background:

• Biomedical sciences major with math minor
• Near perfect GPA & class valedictorian (just found out!)
• Research
  • Goldwater scholar
  • Lots of work and leadership in 2 labs
  • First-author publication and submitting another co-author publication soon
  • 9 research presentations (poster/oral) - national, regional, and institutional level
  • Recipient of 2 institutional grants to fund research
  • I also dabbled in a computational biochemistry lab for 6 months, but didn’t love it and left
• Teaching Assistant (2 years)
  • Won an award for being a top TA in the department
  • Absolutely loved this job
• Leadership (Clubs)
  • I’ve held positions at the women in STEM (2 semesters) and mental health (1 semester) organizations on campus
  • Minimal time because I mostly focused on research, but female representation in STEM and mental health awareness are really important to me
• Service
  • One summer I tutored an adult woman with a learning disability to help her read/write better
  • Minimal hours because I just did this in my free time

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[Med Ed]

In your case, getting your application in shape to apply MD is relatively straightforward. Since you arrive with substantial academic and research cred, it will boil down to getting two things: (1) clinical exposure, and (2) service hours.

The decision to even pursue the MD is a bit trickier, and there is no magic shortcut to reach the "right" answer. I suggest you take some time to think about the type of career you ultimately want to have. Are you in a clinic? In a lab? Do you split time between them? Identify some role models who are currently doing the things you are interested in and see how they got there. I know MD's who are successful, funded, hardcore researchers, and I know MD/PhD's who do only clinical work.

Speaking of which, have you considered MD/PhD?

 

[premed2671]

In your case, getting your application in shape to apply MD is relatively straightforward. Since you arrive with substantial academic and research cred, it will boil down to getting two things: (1) clinical exposure, and (2) service hours.

The decision to even pursue the MD is a bit trickier, and there is no magic shortcut to reach the "right" answer. I suggest you take some time to think about the type of career you ultimately want to have. Are you in a clinic? In a lab? Do you split time between them? Identify some role models who are currently doing the things you are interested in and see how they got there. I know MD's who are successful, funded, hardcore researchers, and I know MD/PhD's who do only clinical work.

Speaking of which, have you considered MD/PhD?

Thanks for your response!

I have considered MD/PhD! I definitely want research to be a part of my life, but I think it's been hard for me to see the advantage of both degrees. I interviewed for a lab tech position (didn't end up choosing his lab) with a professor who is an MD/PhD, and although he has great research, he is in the clinic 50% of the time (2-3 times per week). I respect him and his lab but if I was in his position, I think I would feel guilty splitting my time so much. If I run a lab, I'd want to make sure my students get the mentorship they need. I do admit this is n=1, so maybe I need to shadow some other MD/PhDs to see what it's like for them!

 

[candbgirl]

Yes you need to shadow otherMD/PhDs. You also need to shadow physicians, especially primary care docs. You only really need 50 hours of shadowing so don’t go overboard. Your high school clinical volunteering will not help you. You need 200+ Current hours of clinical experiences(can be paid or volunteer). This must be face to face interaction with the sick, injured and dying. Be careful of jumping on clinical research. Many time the “patients” are actually “subjects” and not sick at all.
Nonclinical volunteering should focus on the unserved/underserved in your community. Specifically those less fortunate than yourself. You need 200+ hours in this area too. Look for opportunities at food banks, homeless shelters, underprivileged kids sports teams, disabled kids camps, activity work at extended care facilities ot veteran centers. Really anything that will get you out of your comfort zone.

 

[eteshoe]

I am biased towards the dual degree pathway so check out the Physician Scientist Forum on SDN. You're background would make you a decently solid applicant once you have a strong MCAT and some clinical exposure.

 

[KnightDoc]

Thanks for your response!

I have considered MD/PhD! I definitely want research to be a part of my life, but I think it's been hard for me to see the advantage of both degrees. I interviewed for a lab tech position (didn't end up choosing his lab) with a professor who is an MD/PhD, and although he has great research, he is in the clinic 50% of the time (2-3 times per week). I respect him and his lab but if I was in his position, I think I would feel guilty splitting my time so much. If I run a lab, I'd want to make sure my students get the mentorship they need. I do admit this is n=1, so maybe I need to shadow some other MD/PhDs to see what it's like for them!

The advantage will be you won't have to choose between them, your background will make you a perfect candidate, AND, most of them are fully funded, so you won't have to worry about paying for med school tuition!

As far as your question about med schools waiving pre-reqs, no, that's not a thing, so you'll probably have to pick up the missing labs. As a Goldwater non-traditional valedictorian, though, you are destined to have a spectacular cycle if you choose to pursue this.

In fact, and I have never said this to anyone, but your background looks so impressive that you could possibly even apply next year (2022-23) if you could manage at least 50 hours of shadowing by the end of May and the MCAT by the end of June. With your background, you should be able to get away with projecting service and clinical hours as future ECs on your application. You'll also be able to pick up the missing labs while applying. Of course, if you are not in a rush, you'll have a much stronger application if you wait the year.

 

[Talldoctor96]

The advantage will be you won't have to choose between them, your background will make you a perfect candidate, AND, most of them are fully funded, so you won't have to worry about paying for med school tuition!

As far as your question about med schools waiving pre-reqs, no, that's not a thing, so you'll probably have to pick up the missing labs. As a Goldwater non-traditional valedictorian, though, you are destined to have a spectacular cycle if you choose to pursue this.

In fact, and I have never said this to anyone, but your background looks so impressive that you could possibly even apply next year (2022-23) if you could manage at least 50 hours of shadowing by the end of May and the MCAT by the end of June. With your background, you should be able to get away with projecting service and clinical hours as future ECs on your application. You'll also be able to pick up the missing labs while applying. Of course, if you are not in a rush, you'll have a much stronger application if you wait the year.

on the contrary- if youre still deciding on essentially March 1 I would not rush into an application. At this point many people have started their PS, asked for letters etc.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Valedictorian is a big draw, especially coming from certain schools. A valedictorian from my school went to HMS (and got accepted to a few other T10s), without anything spectacular (that i know of) on her resume. For example, no pubs, no postbacc fellowship etc.

That should help you a lot, and I think it could bring some solid interest in your app combined with the required/baseline extracurriculars and a good MCAT (517+)

I would not apply this time either due to the reasons others have said. If you’re concerned about age (and that’s why you want to apply this cycle), I had similar feelings about age being mid twenties going into the cycle and actually kind of regret rushing things. Maturity/attributes that come with age can be a positive to adcoms) and I’m convinced I would’ve gotten into higher ranked and more schools if I would’ve waited. You’ll have a stronger application if you put another cycle in between to prepare.

 

[premed2671]

on the contrary- if youre still deciding on essentially March 1 I would not rush into an application. At this point many people have started their PS, asked for letters etc.

I definitely won’t be applying until next cycle l like to take my time when writing an application (for example, I spent 3 months on just my Goldwater app)

 

[premed2671]

The advantage will be you won't have to choose between them, your background will make you a perfect candidate, AND, most of them are fully funded, so you won't have to worry about paying for med school tuition!

As far as your question about med schools waiving pre-reqs, no, that's not a thing, so you'll probably have to pick up the missing labs. As a Goldwater non-traditional valedictorian, though, you are destined to have a spectacular cycle if you choose to pursue this.

In fact, and I have never said this to anyone, but your background looks so impressive that you could possibly even apply next year (2022-23) if you could manage at least 50 hours of shadowing by the end of May and the MCAT by the end of June. With your background, you should be able to get away with projecting service and clinical hours as future ECs on your application. You'll also be able to pick up the missing labs while applying. Of course, if you are not in a rush, you'll have a much stronger application if you wait the year.

Thanks for your confidence That's a bummer about prereqs. I may research schools that don't have firm prereqs and maybe email a couple others about my situation. I just don't want to pay extra tuition to take a couple of credits

 

[KnightDoc]

Thanks for your confidence That's a bummer about prereqs. I may research schools that don't have firm prereqs and maybe email a couple others about my situation. I just don't want to pay extra tuition to take a couple of credits

Very few don't have firm prereqs, and even those that don't "recommend" and expect these labs. You will probably be able to get away with it at a few places but, given where you are probably headed, picking up the 2 labs is probably an investment worth making.

As impressive as your background is, schools all answer to an accrediting body, and they just don't make exceptions. As impressive as you appear to be, the top schools are literally slammed with far, far more applicants than they have seats for who are equally impressive.

You should absolutely reach out to a few schools before taking advice from anonymous strangers on the internet, but I'm pretty sure you are going to find we are correct.

 

[premed2671]

Valedictorian is a big draw, especially coming from certain schools. A valedictorian from my school went to HMS (and got accepted to a few other T10s), without anything spectacular (that i know of) on her resume. For example, no pubs, no postbacc fellowship etc.

That should help you a lot, and I think it could bring some solid interest in your app combined with the required/baseline extracurriculars and a good MCAT (517+)

I would not apply this time either due to the reasons others have said. If you’re concerned about age (and that’s why you want to apply this cycle), I had similar feelings about age being mid twenties going into the cycle and actually kind of regret rushing things. Maturity/attributes that come with age can be a positive to adcoms) and I’m convinced I would’ve gotten into higher ranked and more schools if I would’ve waited. You’ll have a stronger application if you put another cycle in between to prepare.

That's interesting! I am excited about the valedictorian honor, and it was so kind of my department to recommend me for it. My school is just a mid-tier private school, so I don't know how much weight it will truly carry!

I sometimes feel worried about age, but my mom always says that we will be 40 one day no matter what, so we might as well be 40 and doing what we want to do even if it takes a long time to get there. I appreciate your perspective on this.

 

[premed2671]

Very few don't have firm prereqs, and even those that don't "recommend" and expect these labs. You will probably be able to get away with it at a few places but, given where you are probably headed, picking up the 2 labs is probably an investment worth making.

As impressive as your background is, schools all answer to an accrediting body, and they just don't make exceptions. As impressive as you appear to be, the top schools are literally slammed with more applicants than they have seats who are equally impressive.

You should absolutely reach out to a few schools before taking advice from anonymous strangers on the internet, but I'm pretty sure you are going to find we are correct.

Ah that makes sense. A friend told me that UMich med didn't make her take physics 2 once she was accepted. But that's just one story that probably was just random luck!

 

[KnightDoc]

Ah that makes sense. A friend told me that UMich med didn't make her take physics 2 once she was accepted. But that's just one story that probably was just random luck!

This is why:

"The University of Michigan will not require dedicated coursework in physics."

If you can find similar statements regarding the labs, you'll be good to go!

 

[premed2671]

This is why:

"The University of Michigan will not require dedicated coursework in physics."

If you can find similar statements regarding the labs, you'll be good to go!

Now everything makes sense! Ok, I will figure out how/where to take the labs when the time comes and if enough schools require them (which it seems like they will)

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Very few don't have firm prereqs, and even those that don't "recommend" and expect these labs. You will probably be able to get away with it at a few places but, given where you are probably headed, picking up the 2 labs is probably an investment worth making.

As impressive as your background is, schools all answer to an accrediting body, and they just don't make exceptions. As impressive as you appear to be, the top schools are literally slammed with far, far more applicants than they have seats for who are equally impressive.

You should absolutely reach out to a few schools before taking advice from anonymous strangers on the internet, but I'm pretty sure you are going to find we are correct.

I would say that there are maybe 15 private and a few public schools that she would already meet prerequisites at (boost to 25 if she takes bio lab at the very least) but I agree that it’s probably not enough and would limit choices.


I think it’s a pretty solid translation. From what I’ve seen, the job market for PhDs only (not including CS, finance, econ, and some others) has declined throughout the 21st century. One postdoc in a lab I worked in (at a well known research university) had a solid publication record and didn’t get a single interview despite applying to 45+ tenure track positions. Others in the lab (post docs and PhD candidates) also said don’t get a PhD. Granted, alot of medical doctors say not to go to medical school. Overall, MD or MD/PhD is probably one of the safest career paths,

 

[KnightDoc]

I would say that there are maybe 15 private and a few public schools that she would already meet prerequisites at (boost to 25 if she takes bio lab at the very least) but I agree that it’s probably not enough and would limit choices.


I think it’s a pretty solid translation. From what I’ve seen, the job market for PhDs only (not including CS, finance, econ, and some others) has declined throughout the 21st century. One postdoc in a lab I worked in (at a well known research university) had a solid publication record and didn’t get a single interview despite applying to 45+ tenure track positions. Others in the lab (post docs and PhD candidates) also said don’t get a PhD. Granted, alot of medical doctors say not to go to medical school. Overall, MD or MD/PhD is probably one of the safest career paths,

Please name 15 private top tier schools that don't either require or recommend 2 credits worth of both bio and orgo labs. I'm betting the actual number will be closer to zero.

You can start with T30s, because, with her background, I don't think she's going to be seriously considering lower tier schools. Also, keep in mind that "recommended" is really "required" in most cases. Language like "not required" would be helpful. Thanks!

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Vanderbilt
NYU Grossman
NYU LI
Stanford
Duke
Pritzker
Keck
UVA (granted not private)
UCLA (again not private)
UCSD (again not private)
Mayo
Hofstra (probably not top tier but still good)
Stony brook (again not private)

There are likely more that I am not remembering

Please name 15 private top tier schools that don't either require or recommend 2 credits worth of both bio and orgo labs. I'm betting the actual number will be closer to zero.

You can start with T30s, because, with her background, I don't think she's going to be seriously considering lower tier schools. Also, keep in mind that "recommended" is really "required" in most cases. Language like "not required" would be helpful. Thanks!

Didn’t see the recommended part. Extensive lab work likely would be seen as a replacement by many of these schools. I’m not recommending the OP doesn’t do the prerequisites but the trend seems to be towards fewer and less stringent orereqs

 

[Med Ed]

Thanks for your response!

I have considered MD/PhD! I definitely want research to be a part of my life, but I think it's been hard for me to see the advantage of both degrees. I interviewed for a lab tech position (didn't end up choosing his lab) with a professor who is an MD/PhD, and although he has great research, he is in the clinic 50% of the time (2-3 times per week). I respect him and his lab but if I was in his position, I think I would feel guilty splitting my time so much. If I run a lab, I'd want to make sure my students get the mentorship they need. I do admit this is n=1, so maybe I need to shadow some other MD/PhDs to see what it's like for them!

Nowadays the ideal niche for the generic MD/PhD is translational research, since you would have comprehensive knowledge and skills "from bench to bedside." But the beauty of the MD degree + residency and board certification is that you can ultimately create whatever career you want.

I also considered a PhD while in undergrad, but the grant funding system is broken and inadequate, and it seemed like to go that route was a gamble of an entire professional life, regardless of intelligence and work ethic.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Vanderbilt
NYU Grossman
NYU LI
Stanford
Duke
Pritzker
Keck
UVA (granted not private)
UCLA (again not private)
UCSD (again not private)
Mayo
Hofstra (probably not top tier but still good)
Stony brook (again not private)

There are likely more that I am not remembering



Didn’t see the recommended part. Extensive lab work likely would be seen as a replacement by many of these schools. I’m not recommending the OP doesn’t do the prerequisites but the trend seems to be towards fewer and less stringent orereqs

Continuing: it's become a little more confusing since there is also a movement to not specifically require classes. They recommend coverage of topics, so as long as your courses or work experience cover what they are looking for, you are good. Again you should check the websites on specific language.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I'll pitch for the PhD side of things because you will likely get a tuition waiver or a NIH funded fellowship so that you get out of your PhD with no debt. There are a few PhD programs I know that focus on translational medicine and even have you work side by side with clinicians: example Gerstner Sloan Kettering Graduate School of Biomedical Sciences. You can get that PhD with clinical experience to try to go back to get an MD if you want.

 

[LizzyM]

Shadow. Line up a doc in primary care without an academic appointment, a doc in academic medicine (MD or DO with a faculty appointment in an specialty) , a hospitalist (doc doing inpatient care only), and a MD/PhD with a lab. Really get some time with them to find out what their day/week/month/year looks like in terms of time commitments and ask what has changed since they started, what drives them and what drives them over the edge. Every career has an up-side and a down-side; be sure to find out about the down side and don't let anyone tell you that it is all rainbows and puppy dogs.

If you still want to go through with it after that, take a good hard look at the MCAT prep schedules and allow yourself at least 6 months to prep for that exam if you are going to work full-time while you are prepping. A near perfect GPA with a lackluster MCAT will not get much traction as it will be seen as a grade inflation situation.

As mentioned above, you need some clinical exposure with patients and some service activity with the poor. Aim for a few hours/week steadily until you matriculate.

You could hold off on the labs until you are admitted to med school and then pay the tuition for the labs and knock those out in the spring/summer before you matriculate.

 

[LindaAccepted]

Hi everyone,

I have contemplated becoming a doctor since I was 15 years old! I have tons of clinical experience from high school, but chose to pursue research (pre-PhD) in college. I’m a married woman turning 23 this year, and I still have a pull towards medicine that I can’t seem to shake. At a forum I attended last week, I listened to a women talk about her path to medicine, and a flood of memories came back about why I originally wanted to be a doctor… I was totally taken back with doubt if I made the right career choice. Not sure what to do about this!

Anyway, I am graduating in a couple of months and have a great full-time research job lined up. I originally planned to apply to PhD programs in December.

Some questions for all of you:

1. What would be the MOST helpful to quickly evaluate which path is right for me (PhD vs MD)? - shadowing or patient experience?
2. Considering my background below, what would I need to do to prepare my app besides take the MCAT?
3. Premed coursework: I have everything except ochem lab and biology lab. My research counted as lab experience, so I never needed to take them. Will I need to take them or would med schools make an exception?
4. Do you think I could realistically apply for the 2023-2024 cycle?

My husband is super supportive with whatever career I choose, which I am thankful for. We aren’t planning to have kids for several more years, but being a good (working) mom is also a consideration in my decision.

Thanks in advance for any advice! If you are uncomfortable commenting on this for any reason, send me a DM!



My background:

• Biomedical sciences major with math minor
• Near perfect GPA & class valedictorian (just found out!)
• Research
  • Goldwater scholar
  • Lots of work and leadership in 2 labs
  • First-author publication and submitting another co-author publication soon
  • 9 research presentations (poster/oral) - national, regional, and institutional level
  • Recipient of 2 institutional grants to fund research
  • I also dabbled in a computational biochemistry lab for 6 months, but didn’t love it and left
• Teaching Assistant (2 years)
  • Won an award for being a top TA in the department
  • Absolutely loved this job
• Leadership (Clubs)
  • I’ve held positions at the women in STEM (2 semesters) and mental health (1 semester) organizations on campus
  • Minimal time because I mostly focused on research, but female representation in STEM and mental health awareness are really important to me
• Service
  • One summer I tutored an adult woman with a learning disability to help her read/write better
  • Minimal hours because I just did this in my free time

In terms of making your decision, I would say both. it's not an either or question. This is a big decision, and you should both shadow doctors as well as acquire experience in a clinical setting. Also try to do more community service.

Linda