WAMC (Reapplicant): 519/3.97 - No State Schools

[Hexed]

Hi SDN, sorry upfront for the long post! I will be a reapplicant for the next cycle, and I'm looking for some general opinions on my school list. This cycle, I applied to 20 schools with 100 hrs of clinical experience (very bad ECs period) and managed to receive an interview at Wayne State, but was ultimately rejected. If I had to guess the strengths of my last application, it would be a compelling story to medicine and good writing, since I was able to receive an interview with <150 hrs in every EC category. I began working for a reapplication as soon as I submitted my primary, and added clinical work, more clinical volunteering, was able to shadow, got involved as an ESL tutor, and continued coaching.

As the title suggests, I do not have any state schools; I'm a US citizen living in Canada. I was born in Illinois but otherwise no ties outside of regional proximity to a few schools in NY.

1. cGPA and sGPA as calculated by AMCAS or AACOMAS.
- 3.97 cGPA / 3.99 sGPA
2. MCAT score(s) and breakdown. Include all (non-voided) attempts.
- 519 (131/128/130/130)
3. State of residence or country of citizenship (if non-US)
- No state of residence
4. Ethnicity and/or race
- ORM
5. Undergraduate institution or category
- Canadian undergrad
6. Clinical experience (volunteer and non-volunteer)
- About 700 hrs of Lead MA employment at a kids clinic, 300 hrs of childrens hospice volunteering, 170 hrs of pharmacy assistant employment (if this counts)
7. Research experience and productivity
- 100 hrs of research -> selected to present at my university's research symposium
8. Shadowing experience and specialties represented
- ~70 hrs split between 2 pediatricians
9. Non-clinical volunteering
- ~300 hrs split between youth soccer coaching, supporting students with disabilities on campus, and ESL tutoring
10. Relevant honors or awards
- Research award

I am hesitant to apply to schools in the Top 30 due to my low research. I personally have no interest in "high tiers" or prestige - I will be applying to a few DO schools as well. I primarily selected low-mid tier schools based on OOS interview and matriculant data. How does my school list look so far? Should I be concerned about yield protection given my stats?

1. Case Western
2. UVA
3. Rochester
4. Boston
5. Einstein
6. Indiana
7. Carver College of Medicine
8. uMiami
9. Dartmouth
10. Tufts
11. Illinois
12. Sidney Kimmel
13. Stony Brook
14. Larner College of Medicine
15. VCU
16. Hofstra
17. Wayne State
18. Lewis Katz
19. Hackensack Meridian
20. Saint Louis
21. West Virginia
22. SUNY Upstate
23. Drexel
24. Geisinger
25. Eastern Virginia
26. Cooper
27. WMed
28. MCW
29. Arizona - Phoenix
30. Rosalind Franklin
31. Creighton
32. Quinnipiac
33. Penn State
34. Belmont

Thanks!

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[Mr.Smile12]

Your nonclinical volunteering is more a concern than yield protection. It's not obvious that you have service orientation activities of food distribution, shelter volunteer, job and tax preparation, transportation services, or housing rehabilitation.

You also didn't list your campus activities here.

Mission fit? How do you show it? Why do you think Wayne State is a strong fit?

 

[Faha]

Some of the schools on your list admit few non residents with no strong connection to the state. I suggest these schools with your stats:
Boston University
Tufts
Vermont
Quinnipiac
Dartmouth
Albany
New York Medical College
Hofstra
Einstein
Rochester
Hackensack
Pittsburgh
Drexel
Temple
Jefferson
Penn State
George Washington
Virginia Commonwealth
Eastern Virginia
U Virginia
Wake Forest
Duke
USF Morsani
Miami
NOVA MD
Belmont
Tulane
TCU
Creighton
St. Louis
Rosalind Franklin
Medical College Wisconsin
Western Michigan
Oakland Beaumont
Wayne State
Cincinnati
Ohio State
Iowa
Illinois
Alice Walton (when it opens)
Roseman (when it opens)

 

[Hexed]

Your nonclinical volunteering is more a concern than yield protection. It's not obvious that you have service orientation activities of food distribution, shelter volunteer, job and tax preparation, transportation services, or housing rehabilitation.

You also didn't list your campus activities here.

Mission fit? How do you show it? Why do you think Wayne State is a strong fit?

I do not have service orientation activities of that nature. My service is expressed by helping children and families enjoy their time at a hospice and ESL tutoring a recent immigrant to Canada. Perhaps those are not the “traditional” avenues of service but I find it difficult to believe that service orientation cannot be demonstrated from these activities. In fact, Wayne State directly told me that they loved the hospice work I was doing despite having low hours at the time of my last application.

I have few campus activities: I was a coleader of a research competition club, and the campus volunteering work I did was in providing notes to students with disabilities.

Mission fit is interesting… will think about this more. Previously, my link to Wayne State was on community focus and relationship building through soccer coaching and children’s hospice volunteering. Wayne State is very focused on community service and I felt my writing last year articulated my connection quite well despite low hours.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I do not have service orientation activities of that nature. My service is expressed by helping children and families enjoy their time at a hospice and ESL tutoring a recent immigrant to Canada. Perhaps those are not the “traditional” avenues of service but I find it difficult to believe that service orientation cannot be demonstrated from these activities. In fact, Wayne State directly told me that they loved the hospice work I was doing despite having low hours at the time of my last application.

I have few campus activities: I was a coleader of a research competition club, and the campus volunteering work I did was in providing notes to students with disabilities.

Mission fit is interesting… will think about this more. Previously, my link to Wayne State was on community focus and relationship building through soccer coaching and children’s hospice volunteering. Wayne State is very focused on community service and I felt my writing last year articulated my connection quite well despite low hours.

Most of us experts agree that we like to see hospice work as well. We are trying to help you improve your standing to hypothesize (based on our perspective in the admissions process) where you need to show improvement for a reapplication. Let it be said, hospice work is health-adjacent, and most health-related jobs are by nature designed to serve others. We want to see that be an essential part of you and not one that is only tied to professional interests or being in an academic setting (where everyone teachers or tutors as a demonstration of their academic competencies). Otherwise, why not work as a chaplain at those hospices? They can make just as important an impact. The work helping with students with disabilities is also important to note BTW; how many hours for these on-campus activities?

That said, yes, you probably appealed to Wayne State based on geography and your interest in serving the community. If you had more experiences overall (the clinical experience boost will definitely help you), you might have gotten more success in the overall process and a more favorable admissions outcome.

You said you had a childhood in the US (so where?) before attending college in Canada (I presume Ontario)?

 

[Hexed]

Most of us experts agree that we like to see hospice work as well. We are trying to help you improve your standing to hypothesize (based on our perspective in the admissions process) where you need to show improvement for a reapplication. Let it be said, hospice work is health-adjacent, and most health-related jobs are by nature designed to serve others. We want to see that be an essential part of you and not one that is only tied to professional interests or being in an academic setting (where everyone teachers or tutors as a demonstration of their academic competencies). Otherwise, why not work as a chaplain at those hospices? They can make just as important an impact. The work helping with students with disabilities is also important to note BTW; how many hours for these on-campus activities?

That said, yes, you probably appealed to Wayne State based on geography and your interest in serving the community. If you had more experiences overall (the clinical experience boost will definitely help you), you might have gotten more success in the overall process and a more favorable admissions outcome.

You said you had a childhood in the US (so where?) before attending college in Canada (I presume Ontario)?

I see what you mean, thank you. Interestingly enough, some schools (such as Georgetown) do not even consider the hospice volunteer work I do to be "clinical," and deem it as community volunteering. Furthermore, this close to the next application cycle, I wouldn't be able to get any additional meaningful non-clinical volunteering that isn't a continuation of my ESL tutoring or soccer coaching. My volunteer work with students with disabilities and as an ESL tutor are ~60 hours each, and the club leadership experience was around 50 hrs. The bulk of my non-clinical volunteering is in youth soccer coaching. Given what I have described, do you think I am in a good position for the schools I listed, assuming that I can write well?

I grew up in Illinois on the border of Indiana but moved to Canada when I was quite young. In terms of states I have "ties" to, it would be Illinois and Indiana (I live in Ontario, yes).

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I see what you mean, thank you. Interestingly enough, some schools (such as Georgetown) do not even consider the hospice volunteer work I do to be "clinical," and deem it as community volunteering. Furthermore, this close to the next application cycle, I wouldn't be able to get any additional meaningful non-clinical volunteering that isn't a continuation of my ESL tutoring or soccer coaching. My volunteer work with students with disabilities and as an ESL tutor are ~60 hours each, and the club leadership experience was around 50 hrs. The bulk of my non-clinical volunteering is in youth soccer coaching. Given what I have described, do you think I am in a good position for the schools I listed, assuming that I can write well?

I grew up in Illinois on the border of Indiana but moved to Canada when I was quite young. In terms of states I have "ties" to, it would be Illinois and Indiana (I live in Ontario, yes).

So where did you graduate from high school and spend most of your life? Near Gary or near the Tri-State?

 

[Hexed]

So where did you graduate from high school and spend most of your life? Near Gary or near the Tri-State?

Sorry, my wording brought about this confusion. I spent most of my life in Ontario, I only ever did preschool in the US. Very very very minimal ties.

 

[candbgirl]

What are you doing at the hospice.? I’m sure you aren’t treating the patients? Are you reading to them, talking to them and maybe their families , playing with them and their siblings? Activities of a comforting nature. You have LOTS of clinical activities. Figure out how to move those hospice hours to nonclinical volunteering! Children’s hospice is gut wrenching. It is impressive that you have 300 hours. Use this to your advantage. Your other nonclinical volunteering isn’t what most ADCOMS are looking for. You should be doing activities that are off campus and way out of your comfort zone. Not one of those really touches that. But the Children’s Hospice…

 

[Hexed]

What are you doing at the hospice.? I’m sure you aren’t treating the patients? Are you reading to them, talking to them and maybe their families , playing with them and their siblings? Activities of a comforting nature. You have LOTS of clinical activities. Figure out how to move those hospice hours to nonclinical volunteering! Children’s hospice is gut wrenching. It is impressive that you have 300 hours. Use this to your advantage. Your other nonclinical volunteering isn’t what most ADCOMS are looking for. You should be doing activities that are off campus and way out of your comfort zone. Not one of those really touches that. But the Children’s Hospice…

Yes, it is as you describe - lots of conversation, music, reading, etc. When I applied last year I felt it was more nonclinical, but many posts on SDN suggested that since it is patient-facing, it is considered as clinical. I wasn't sure where I should place it but ultimately put it in clinical volunteering as I was lacking patient-facing experience at the time.

My concern with moving it to nonclinical volunteering now is how adcoms may view it. Although I personally believe my hospice volunteering to be both clinical and nonclinical and that it would fit in either category, I fear adcoms would see it as an attempt to bolster one part of my application. My activity description clearly lays out that I have no medical responsibility and I am solely a source of comfort for the kids and families. I find my volunteering here to be especially meaningful and wouldn't want a misclassification to harm my application... Perhaps because it can go into either category, I should place it in nonclinical volunteering, as you said. Thank you.

Edit: I suppose another concern is about how my “commitment” to medicine will appear if I remove hospice from clinical experience. I have been volunteering at the hospice for 1.5 yr, but I only recently started MA work in September. My hospice volunteering has been a huge part of why I want to be a doctor, so I wonder if moving it would weaken my overall application.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Yes, it is as you describe - lots of conversation, music, reading, etc. When I applied last year I felt it was more nonclinical, but many posts on SDN suggested that since it is patient-facing, it is considered as clinical. I wasn't sure where I should place it but ultimately put it in clinical volunteering as I was lacking patient-facing experience at the time.

My concern with moving it to nonclinical volunteering now is how adcoms may view it. Although I personally believe my hospice volunteering to be both clinical and nonclinical and that it would fit in either category, I fear adcoms would see it as an attempt to bolster one part of my application. My activity description clearly lays out that I have no medical responsibility and I am solely a source of comfort for the kids and families. I find my volunteering here to be especially meaningful and wouldn't want a misclassification to harm my application... Perhaps because it can go into either category, I should place it in nonclinical volunteering, as you said. Thank you.

Edit: I suppose another concern is about how my “commitment” to medicine will appear if I remove hospice from clinical experience. I have been volunteering at the hospice for 1.5 yr, but I only recently started MA work in September. My hospice volunteering has been a huge part of why I want to be a doctor, so I wonder if moving it would weaken my overall application.

Hospice is healthcare-adjacent so it matters what you did more than how it is classified. We often encourage applicants to initially classify hospice work as "non-clinical" but acknowledge some adcoms may consider it clinical based on what you did. Arguing over the hours "bean counting" is important, but discretion is still held with adcoms. And not all adcoms view such activities the same way.

 

[Hexed]

Hospice is healthcare-adjacent so it matters what you did more than how it is classified. We often encourage applicants to initially classify hospice work as "non-clinical" but acknowledge some adcoms may consider it clinical based on what you did. Arguing over the hours "bean counting" is important, but discretion is still held with adcoms. And not all adcoms view such activities the same way.

I see. If I move hospice to non clinical, do you think I should be concerned at all about how my “commitment” to medicine will appear to adcoms taking a quick glance at my application, since the start date of my “true” clinical experience (Medical assistant) was in September 2023, while my hospice volunteering (in non clinical) was at the start of 2023? Not sure if I’m being neurotic and overthinking.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I see. If I move hospice to non clinical, do you think I should be concerned at all about how my “commitment” to medicine will appear to adcoms taking a quick glance at my application, since the start date of my “true” clinical experience (Medical assistant) was in September 2023, while my hospice volunteering (in non clinical) was at the start of 2023? Not sure if I’m being neurotic and overthinking.

Not speaking for the other experts, I think you'll be fine. I trust that people read and take organized notes.

 

[Hexed]

Not speaking for the other experts, I think you'll be fine. I trust that people read and take organized notes.

Thank you (and the others!) for the advice, I really appreciate it!!

 

[MD_Maker]

A little confused regarding your school list, it seems haphazard. You're from Illinois, but I'm not seeing Carle, Stritch, etc. A lot of East Coast focus it seems, while missing some midwest OOS public (e.g. Kentucky, etc) and if you want a broad school list consider OOS private despite their matriculation rate (e.g. Tulane). Tbh I would work on this some more, a school list is one the highest yield aspects of your application and yours feels disjointed.

 

[Hexed]

A little confused regarding your school list, it seems haphazard. You're from Illinois, but I'm not seeing Carle, Stritch, etc. A lot of East Coast focus it seems, while missing some midwest OOS public (e.g. Kentucky, etc) and if you want a broad school list consider OOS private despite their matriculation rate (e.g. Tulane). Tbh I would work on this some more, a school list is one the highest yield aspects of your application and yours feels disjointed.

Unfortunately, I am quite sure that public IS schools in the midwest would likely recognize I have no regional attachment and not interview me. I'm also only from Illinois in the sense that I was BORN there, but I spent the overwhelming majority of my life in Ontario, Canada. The East Coast focus is because I live in the north east, I'm basically in "upper" upstate NY haha. Just my guess, but I feel like a school a drive away from me in NY would look more kindly on me than a school in Kentucky. Furthermore, my stats are significantly higher than the medians for many OOS midwest public schools.

I primarily chose schools in the North East with OOS interview rates of 5-10%, barring uMiami, Cooper, and Quinnipiac, of which I am interested in Cooper/Quinnipiac's primary care focus. A school like Tulane interviews 3.2% of their OOS applicants of which it receives 14000 primaries... these are not good numbers for someone like me without a "safety" state school and limited budget (CAD to USD is destroying me haha). These low yield schools are definitely screening more for mission fit, especially considering they receive over 10k applications. The lowest interview rate for a school on my list is uMiami, at 3.6%, with the rest ranging from 5-12%, which is as good as it gets for OOS unless you're applying to top 30s. Furthermore, that interview rate is likely higher than it appears, as their secondary may scare away many applicants... From perusing some schools that release how many secondaries were received, it seems that 60-80% of applicants don't send secondaries. That's my logic anyways I've spent a lot of time looking at the overall interview and matriculant % off interview rates, and I picked the ones that had generally the highest odds of interview and matriculation.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Reach out to this organization and see if there is someone similar to you. They may also help give you feedback on your list.

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