Would love advice on criminal offense that was done overseas

[deleted1115001]

Hey, I've always been lurking here and hate to have this as my very first post, but welp... here we go.

So, to make it as brief as possible (it's pretty complicated tbh), I am a permanent resident and have a criminal offense from back in 2015 when I visited my native country for a few months. There is not an equivalent crime nor offense in the States of what I was charged and convicted for. The closest I can think of is defamation, which is considered to be a civil claim instead of a crime. Anyways, I was charged, convicted, and paid $1500 as a fine/penalty. I was not sentenced or anything. The records have now been expunged as it has been quite a few years since the incident has happened. (But the records still do exist, and can be revealed if I request so for immigration purposes, etc. - Certiphi will not have access to the records)

Now here comes the issue. On AMCAS, I said "no" to both felony and misdemeanor. I've consulted 3 lawyers, including those who specialize in immigration services, about this issue. Every single response is, "Well, that's really vague. I can't give you a definite answer." My initial reasoning for saying "no" was because it is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor in the States. But, thinking of it, I shouldn't be the one making a decision on whether it is one or not. But, even lawyers are like "err... it's a crime overseas, so welp... err..."
I have no idea what to do on this and was hoping to seek advice from the wise SDN community who most of the time, if not always, have an answer.

Furthermore, what makes things worse is that secondaries in some schools ask whether I have been convicted. I misunderstood this as "were you convicted in the States." as said "no" to those questions. Should I proactively reach out to schools and say. "hey I actually have a conviction" or should I just wait until I get II, then (hopefully) get accepted, then tell the schools?

I haven't been accepted to any schools yet, but as a neurotic premed, was getting super nervous about this.

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[Goro]

Just check the box yes and explain a little better than you did here, and adcoms will just scratch their heads at this and then proceeded to evaluate your application like any other applicant.

 

[Goro]

Meaning, it's a nothing burger

 

[deleted1115001]

Just check the box yes and explain a little better than you did here, and adcoms will just scratch their heads at this and then proceeded to evaluate your application like any other applicant.

When you say just check the box yes, are you referring to the AMCAS application or the secondaries? And thank you for the reassurance. I was getting worried that I might be viewed as intentionally deceiving the admissions committee or even my application being DOA. As stated above, it's a really vague situation sigh...

Also, when explaining the conviction, do I need to provide every single detail of the incident, or would a brief explanation along with the results be enough?

Oh, and how would DO schools look at this too Goro? I recall that you were an adcom for a DO school!

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

If it’s not on your background check it’s not worth mentioning. Im not mentioning dodging the draft either.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

you already answered No and it won't show up on background checks so move on.

 

[Helpful Troll]

If it’s not on your background check it’s not worth mentioning. Im not mentioning dodging the draft either.

Be careful about '... dodging the draft ...' in the US. With few exceptions male US citizens and permanent resident aliens failure to register for Selective Service before age 26 makes them ineligible for Federal student loan and grant programs.

 

[Goro]

When you say just check the box yes, are you referring to the AMCAS application or the secondaries? And thank you for the reassurance. I was getting worried that I might be viewed as intentionally deceiving the admissions committee or even my application being DOA. As stated above, it's a really vague situation sigh...

Also, when explaining the conviction, do I need to provide every single detail of the incident, or would a brief explanation along with the results be enough?

Oh, and how would DO schools look at this too Goro? I recall that you were an adcom for a DO school!

Whatever prompt there is that asks for arrests, convictions, etc.

DO schools use AACOMAS, not AMCAS.

Explanation should be brief. You're not writing a crime novel.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Be careful about '... dodging the draft ...' in the US. With few exceptions male US citizens and permanent resident aliens failure to register for Selective Service before age 26 makes them ineligible for Federal student loan and grant programs.

Not in United States.

 

[IlDestriero]

If it’s something like insulting the sovereign, I don’t think anyone would care. It happened. If asked, document it clearly and move on. Nobody is going to question your potential because you called the queen a ***** or got caned 10 years ago in Thailand for spitting gum out on the street. Just leave out the part about being there to be part of the Guinness Book of Records Worlds Largest Orgy.

 

[doctorsmom5594]

Hey, I've always been lurking here and hate to have this as my very first post, but welp... here we go.

So, to make it as brief as possible (it's pretty complicated tbh), I am a permanent resident and have a criminal offense from back in 2015 when I visited my native country for a few months. There is not an equivalent crime nor offense in the States of what I was charged and convicted for. The closest I can think of is defamation, which is considered to be a civil claim instead of a crime. Anyways, I was charged, convicted, and paid $1500 as a fine/penalty. I was not sentenced or anything. The records have now been expunged as it has been quite a few years since the incident has happened. (But the records still do exist, and can be revealed if I request so for immigration purposes, etc. - Certiphi will not have access to the records)

Now here comes the issue. On AMCAS, I said "no" to both felony and misdemeanor. I've consulted 3 lawyers, including those who specialize in immigration services, about this issue. Every single response is, "Well, that's really vague. I can't give you a definite answer." My initial reasoning for saying "no" was because it is neither a felony nor a misdemeanor in the States. But, thinking of it, I shouldn't be the one making a decision on whether it is one or not. But, even lawyers are like "err... it's a crime overseas, so welp... err..."
I have no idea what to do on this and was hoping to seek advice from the wise SDN community who most of the time, if not always, have an answer.

Furthermore, what makes things worse is that secondaries in some schools ask whether I have been convicted. I misunderstood this as "were you convicted in the States." as said "no" to those questions. Should I proactively reach out to schools and say. "hey I actually have a conviction" or should I just wait until I get II, then (hopefully) get accepted, then tell the schools?

I haven't been accepted to any schools yet, but as a neurotic premed, was getting super nervous about this.

The question asks have you been found guilty of a misdemeanor whether or not it has been expunged, have you plead guilty or no contest of a felony?

 

[dnyal]

Could some schools filter you out by simply checking "yes," though? That seems like a gamble to me.

I see it this way: there are civil cases and penal cases. If the wrongdoing was against someone else and your government asked you to pay a penalty/fine, that's a civil infraction and does not count even as a misdemeanor. If the defamation was against the state itself, well, imagine a Cuban speaking against the regime: they might be incarcerated and charged of a crime against their country, but does that count as a crime in America? I mean, there is the First Amendment. What if someone is convicted of being gay in Zambia? They broke the law

You don't want to label yourself a criminal to medical schools out of a misguided sense of doing the right thing. You said yourself the "crime" doesn't even have an equivalent in the U.S. I would suggest you follow the legal advice from the counsel you've consulted. International law is complicated as it is, and what are we to give you a definitive answer? The most you're gonna get here is an ethical debate on whether or not it is the "right" thing. Just do as the professionals told you and err on your side this time.

 

[dnyal]

Not in United States.

Actually, it does. I am a permanent resident, and I had to submit a letter from the Selective Service indicating why I never registered (I immigrated past my 26th birthday). Without it, I was denied all financial aid by my school until I did (source).

 

[LizzyM]

The draft dodging is a side conversation here. If you bugged out of a country where you would have been drafted and came to the US, that's draft dodging that doesn't need to be reported. Not registering for Selective Service (the draft) in the US is a different kettle of fish that could affect you ability to get financial aid.

As far as the OP goes, I'm figuring that this is was an offense against God or the monarch which is written into law in whatever country. If you had ticked the box, it wouldn't have screened you out automatically but would have gotten you an additional layer of scrutiny. I know someone who spent days in jail during the civil rights movement and still got into medical school. Granted that was more than half a century ago but it just goes to say that there aren't absolutes in this system. That said, what's done is done and given that this won't show up on a criminal background check and it is not a crime in the US, I'd let it slide unless someone ever brings it up (which is about as likely as snow in July in Miami).

 

[Saleem_Rakeem]

I can not, and would not, with the huge gaps of information, presume to give or offer legal advice. ( particularly, not having interviewed you, done intake, knowing the exact charges you were convicted of, nor if you are correct in saying your out of country crime, is no crime in The U.S.) Rather, I will simply discuss some general principles from the limited information you offered.

There are really 2 different issues involved with your situation.

First, how will this issue will effect your immigration status, future citizenship, etc.? The waters of Immigration Law can indeed be murky. Ordinarily, even for a misdemeanor charge, non violent charge, NOT punishable by at least a year and 1 day, starts things off, by itself, as something that can be worked with.

A felony is totally different. However, you mentioned the "crime" not being a crime in The United States. I have some educated guesses about where your previous conviction could be from, but I would just be guessing, not knowing the facts, nor all the charges, for certain. (I'll return to "previous conviction" in one moment)

The origin of many laws in The United States is rooted in what is called The Common Law. And there were some crimes, at Common Law, that have been repealed. A good number, however, still exist and may have even been codified (written into state/federal law) and are enforced.

And some are still crimes (a potential problem), but are NOT routinely prosecuted and enforced. For example, Adultery is still a crime in various states, it is just NOT prosecuted and therefore enforced. (rarely) Nonetheless, it is still the law.

Are you aware, for example, in The U.S., some states still have CRIMINAL DEFAMATION laws, IN SOME FORM? Are you sure what you were convicted of has no similar law in The United States???

Map of States With Criminal Laws Against Defamation

Twenty-four states have laws that make it a crime to publicly say mean things about people, with penalties ranging from fines to imprisonment. These laws violate the First Amendment and are disproportionately used against people who criticize public officials or government employees. The ACLU...

www.aclu.org

Unfortunately, for immigration purposes, expunged or not, if it is disclosed or NOT disclosed and discovered (an act of dishonesty - I am sure the immigration attorneys you spoke, to explained!!), is still a conviction! I would suggest, IF you know there is a paper trail, to consult with your immigration attorney, and if she recommends disclosure to get out, ahead of this, then do so. (Either way, if it happened BEFORE you were granted your permanent status, an issue is going to come up on this point)

(Which raises the question, how a felony(s) was expunged, and how said expungement allowed any paper trail or computer trail to exist! (although expungement in The U.S., is also NOT perfect, either.))

An international, expunged conviction, for a crime that is or was never a crime, in The U.S., it can be argued, lacks any jurisdictional relevance, whatsoever, in The United States, in terms of AAMCAS, Medical School disclosure, employment, etc. (There are some exceptions)

Again, those are the general principles, not knowing for certain, your circumstances, the crime(s), perhaps your situation is THE EXCEPTION, THE RULE OR IN A GRAY AREA.

What precisely is the law (the intent behind the law) of expunged convictions in your home country, that is another potential factor, too.

I suggest you speak to an attorney in the state where you reside, who handles expungements regularly for clients. (In addition to trying to track down an immigration attorney who has handled this specific issue before, they are out there. Might also be good to find out if that paper trail loop back home can be closed, too.)