you gotta be kidding me asking if you are Native American and African American

[pathstudent]

To the guy who asked if he is African American and and the guy saying he should be considered Native American.

You guys are *****s, and you guys can kiss my ass.

These identifications are made in order that people that are under represented in medicine, and postions of power in general, due to long standing injustices that stretch back generations, can be ensured a fair shake.

In the recent past whites were overwhelming over represented in medicine and now some Asians, Middle Easterners and Indians (from India) are now way over represented in medicine. People from India comprise only 1/2% of the population of the US but hold 17% of the med school slots (at least that is one statistic I saw). Is it because they are superior people? NO! Is it because they worked hard and were raised in affluent educated families, many of which already contained numerous doctors and other professionals? YES!

Med schools should absolutely use a quota system and ensure all people have access to the great careers of medicine.

And the knee jerk response, "shouldn't doctors be the chosen from the best and brightest students" holds no merit either. That response denies the fact that the system is inherently flawed from its conception. Moreover, being a third year medical student (so having seen how it works from the inside on a daily basis for over a year), it is obvious that most docs don't need to be the "best and the brightest", in this day and age of medicine, for many specialities, it is all about following the protocol for what is "the standard of care" (i.e. if a man with such and such risk factors comes in with Chest Pain, you do such and such and then based on those results you do A, B or C).

I hope both of you realize how whiny and silly you are being.

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[enamine]

I agree... if you don't already know that you are Native American and/or Black then that probably means that you aren't!

 

[poloace]

enamine and co. -
my thread wasn't about whether or not i was black. maybe if you'd take the time to read it, you'd gather that my focus was on my status as an african-american.

p

 

[pathstudent]

Well in case you have not figured it out, people from Egypt are not African Americans

 

[enamine]

poloace -- maybe if you titled your thread to reflect its content appropriately....

 

[Pre-Dent-David]

Pathstudent are you saying that URM's need AA because they are incapable of getting into med school on their merits?

 

[poloace]

enamine.... or you, like the rest, could actually READ the thread... i'm sorry, maybe i should start an affirmative action clause here that allows lazy people such as yourself to be broadcast SDN via satellite radio... God forbid you'd actually read anything. am i wasting your time? i'm sorry. i'll let you get back to your important life.

path- where are you from? could it be that you don't want me to apply as african american because then i'd be just as 'qualified' as you?

pre-dent- that's what its sounding like to me.

p

 

[manicmaven]

I need a drink.

 

[pathstudent]

No I am not saying "URMs need AA because they can not get in on merit" as you put it. Such a statement assumes that society is fare and just which is not the case. For instance let's say you live in SF, a bastion of diversity, take a look at Upper Pacific Heights or Tiburon or Ross all beautiful neighborhoods full of millionaires and all overwhelmingly white. Then take a look at the slums of Oakland where not a single person is white. Or in Chicago for instance. There are no neighborhoods like Wilmette that are 100% African American and there are no place like Cabrini Green that are 100% white.

America needs Affirmative Action for upper middle class jobs, like being a doc, because what is wrong needs to be made right, and then hopefully one day there will be no one living in places like Cabrini Green.

And for that guy that is of Egyptian ancestory that thinks he can be considered African American, dude, what is your point anyway? Is this what you are about?

 

[pathstudent]

i of couse meant "fair" before anyone bothers to point it out. Just typing way too fast

 

[wisdom2000]

The NIH has a 19-page document on how to determine one's race/ethnicity. Why don't you guys read it to find out what you are.
No wait, you still wouldn't know...and I wonder why

 

[poloace]

the problem is that the definitions and distinctions between race and ethinicity are so varied from one soure to another. with this in mind, the NIH definition may not be relevant for purposes of AMCAS.

p

 

[Tyra]

Just my 2 cents. As mentioned in previous threads, i both agree and disagree with AA. Sometimes it's a catch 22, but very, very NECESSARY. It seems as if some are confusing the term "underrepresented" with "underprivileged". AA is not about the black kid down the street who grew up in an $80,000yr household; it is about making sure the population of drs is represented adequately to cater to all ethnicities. In a lot of the cases of the african american applicant who comes from a middle class family---his parents most definitely had to overcome many obstacles to assure that his life wouldn't be filled with the economical/social barriers that theirs was filled with. And i'm sure AA had a part in breaking that cycle for them. I speak from personal experience. It pisses me off that I have to struggle to send my kids to private school (still a poor private school at that) because the public schools in my neighborhood don't have proper books, caring teachers, the resources or desire to have the resources to help my son who learns considerably slower than everyone else. I was born in a horrid neighborhood of which my mom moved me out of in 2nd grade. I attended all white grammar, jr, and 1 semester of highschool at which point she felt i needed to be around "my own" so moved me back to an all black highschool. The educational resources or motivation that exists in white schools just do not exist in black schools. Disbelieve if u choose to remain in the dark but it's true. Visit a white highschool and black highschool (or latino for that matter) then come back to this forum and say you don't see a point in AA. When my mother moved me back to the predominately black highschool (99%), I almost went thru withdrawal. Over the course of 4yrs, my motivation for education decreased enormously. No one came to our school to encourage us to be Drs. or lawyers or go to Harvard or Yale; hell in jr highschool (all white) -colleges and drs and lawyers came to motivate and encourage us. Looking back it makes me wonder why no one came to my black highschool to encourage us to be more than athletes, nurses and teachers??? Disgusting.

 

[l.a.liznyc]

Originally posted by pathstudent
These identifications are made in order that people that are under represented in medicine, and postions of power in general, due to long standing injustices that stretch back generations, can be ensured a fair shake.

Med schools should absolutely use a quota system and ensure all people have access to the great careers of medicine.

The Supreme Court previously decided that a quota system is absolutely illegal. Institutions of higher learning who take ethnicity into account when making admissions decisions often say they're doing it to increase diversity at their institution for the purpose of enhancing the educational environment (i.e. UMich). I think it's very important for people who are going to defend the current state of AA to actually understand the rationale behind the policy.

 

[kaos]

Man, this discussion never fails to come up with every application cycle.

 

[VienneseWaltz]

Tyra, you make some great points, but AA doesn't address the discrepancies you describe. AA comes in when kids have already graduated from substandard primary and secondary schools. If we focused more resources on eliminating those disparities, we wouldn't need AA.

You state that AA isn't about the black kid who grew up in an $80k household, but I think middle-class black kids often are the primary beneficiaries. Most of us know a black pre-med from a wealthy family who isn't worried about getting a good score on the MCAT b/c, well, he or she is a URM and "will get in anyway." Some of those kids have nasty shocks coming to them, but I don't think AA was meant to foster this kind of attitude.

All criticism of AA aside, however, my experience in applying to medical school is that med schools have a broad definition of "diversity." As a non-traditional student, I benefited from this desire to bring a variety of perspectives into the class, so I'm not sure how much I can complain. Ethnicity is a subset of the diversity med schools seek.

 

[Tyra]

What else strikes me as odd is that the same site i wrote about earlier (from last nite) also broke down over 4 hundred and something profiles of interviewed vs admitted apllicants and even went further to allow u to select certain criteria (age, gender, race, mcat score, gpa, etc) to find out which medical schools had enterring or interviewing students that matched your criteria. When trying to find out about Rush (where i may be interested in applying if i go the med school route), i had to constantly remove criteria to find any black applicants admitted or interviewed (i think this was for the yr 2001)-- i can't even remember if i found any... I've been doing this research because i am not only a URM, but a non-trad as well and wanted to know what i was getting into...

 

[VienneseWaltz]

Tyra--have you checked out MomMD.com? It has some great forums for women in medicine, at all stages (thinking-about-it to practicing)--and all the posters are so nice to each other. There are some schools with great attitudes towards students who are parents (Wake Forest, Stanford come to mind, but there are many others) and some with not-so-great attitudes ... MomMD.com has a lot of discussion of that sort of thing.

 

[Tyra]

as a matter of fact i have in ....and have completely forgot about it until u just mentioned it (SDN keeps me so stimulated!) --thanks---think i'll go have a look now!

 

[Pre-Dent-David]

Thanks for contributing you insight to this threat kaos. I am sure most people were not aware that this topic has been discussed before.

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

I agree, pathstudent. There should be racial quotas that insure equal representation for racial groups in medicine. In fact, I will go further then you. When I graduated, all of the "with honors" kids were white or asian. There were very few blacks. I demand equal representation. There should be separate standards for each race, an <b>equal but separate</b> standard if you will. Because people should be judged as members of their race first, and as individuals second.

 

[pathstudent]

RYO,

You are so misguided and not at all funny. I feel sorry for you and for the guy from Egypt who started this.

Go ahead dude. Put down that you are an African American. You will prove you are a total j-off, and you will have proven your point.

And Tyra, Rush would be a killer place. You split your clinical training between Cook County and Rush's hospital from what I understand. That would be awesome.

 

[Corn-Trollio]

uh oh IT"S THE BATTLE OF THE URM's

no you aren't black enough because you're an egyptian. I don't care if my family is black and just happened to come here from Nigeria when my father was 2, I want special consideration dammit.

Forget you egyptians. you were mean to Moses after all.
No special admission for you, even if Egypt is in Africa

Now get ready for world war 3 as the Hispanic population has overtaken ( by sheer overbreeding) the black population for number one minority. Look out Cosby, make room for George Lopez

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

Why are you so angry at me, quota boy? I agree completely with you. F*** the 14th amendment. F*** the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Individual merit is secondary to the distribution of rewards and admissions slots based on race. Racial discrimination is only bad when I say it is.

 

[jeffsleepy]

maybe the people who like affirmative action can just vote for it and the people who don't like affirmative action can just vote against it and everything will be fine and we can stop trying to argue the point without changing anyone's mind.

 

[Gumshoe]

i agree with sleepy. Both sides present good arguments, but you know what? This argument has been going on for YEARS and the situation that african americans have in the political climate of the USA is something the world has never seen. Socio-economical, culture, attitude ... whatever, it's nearly impossible to truly gauge this situation. Let's just live with it. Liberal idealism has been on all cylinders in America for a while now and that's the way of the USA (unfortunately).

Path is right though, and I've been saying it for a long time --> there are SO many people that can be doctors. Yes, you have to be smart, but the representation is a key issue (I loved the overrepresentation of indians stat, btw) and I think that they should select accordingly. Yes, being a "white" (whatever that means) male is the toughest route but it's part of the game.

If you are persistent, it'll happen. Cheers to all those on waiting lists right now. Keep your head up!

Gumshoe

 

[Blackstars]

Hey Pre dent David, what are you doing in this forum. Shouldn't you be in the pre-dental forum, get back to where you belong before I open a can of whup a** on you.

 

[lattimer13]

i'm white...well, hold on a second...no...wait...yes, i am.

 

[ColdChillin]

I have a quick question. I am a direct descendant of Adam and Eve, the first two human beings on the Earth. Therefore, can I claim that I am part of every ethnic group on the planet? Please tell me yes because I think that would really put me over the top in this whole admissions process.

 

[Random Access]

*sigh* keep feeding the troll...

why bother attacking people, dude? since you're new here, or at least seem to be, you should know personal attacks are strongly discouraged and frowned upon.

 

[ColdChillin]

Hey Random Access,

If you're referring to me regarding personal attacks I want to make it clear that I had no intention of attacking anybody. I put that comment on there because I was trying to lighten the mood. Apparently, you did not interpret it the same way and for that I am sorry. All I was trying to do was add a little humor to a discussion about a topic that has been discussed a million times before. Peace.

 

[relatively prime]

What people don't get is that it's not about being from a continent called "Africa" and so being from it makes you "African American." It's about being BLACK. It's always been about being black. We just don't want to admit to ourelves that after all, it really is just about skin color... not where you're from or who your parents are or how much money you have... it's just about being black. Nobody cares if you're from Africa or Australia... it's not about that. We only started using the term "African American" because we started to get embarrassed by the fact that we were calling a whole group of people by that one and only characteristic that means anything to us: "black." That's all we saw, so that's what we called them, "black." Suddenly we started to realize this and wanted to call them something else... "afircan american" It's supposed to sound so much nicer.... but then that's gotten us into this mess... b/c not all black people are african and not all african people are black... and black is all we care about... so why bother with "african?"

 

[All-Star14]

Originally posted by relatively prime
What people don't get is that it's not about being from a continent called "Africa" and so being from it makes you "African American." It's about being BLACK. It's always been about being black. We just don't want to admit to ourelves that after all, it really is just about skin color... not where you're from or who your parents are or how much money you have... it's just about being black. Nobody cares if you're from Africa or Australia... it's not about that. We only started using the term "African American" because we started to get embarrassed by the fact that we were calling a whole group of people by that one and only characteristic that means anything to us: "black." That's all we saw, so that's what we called them, "black." Suddenly we started to realize this and wanted to call them something else... "afircan american" It's supposed to sound so much nicer.... but then that's gotten us into this mess... b/c not all black people are african and not all african people are black... and black is all we care about... so why bother with "african?"

Exactly

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by ColdChillin
Hey Random Access,

If you're referring to me regarding personal attacks I want to make it clear that I had no intention of attacking anybody. I put that comment on there because I was trying to lighten the mood. Apparently, you did not interpret it the same way and for that I am sorry. All I was trying to do was add a little humor to a discussion about a topic that has been discussed a million times before. Peace.

You're the OP? (i.e. did PathStudent get banned or something) So, how is this humorous again?

To the guy who asked if he is African American and and the guy saying he should be considered Native American.

You guys are *****s, and you guys can kiss my ass.

 

[jekel]

okay, maybe i am missing out on something. but if you are from egypt (the one in africa that is) and now you are an american citizen. would you not be african american? why is everyone giving this guy such a hard time?

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by jekel
okay, maybe i am missing out on something. but if you are from egypt (the one in africa that is) and now you are an american citizen. would you not be african american? why is everyone giving this guy such a hard time?

Umm...would my white friend who was born in Zimbabwe and is now an American citizen be called African-American?

 

[14457]

Originally posted by ColdChillin
I have a quick question. I am a direct descendant of Adam and Eve, the first two human beings on the Earth. Therefore, can I claim that I am part of every ethnic group on the planet? Please tell me yes because I think that would really put me over the top in this whole admissions process.

lol...i don't think so..i don't know though..you may have to ask some researchers or someone..hm....lol

 

[poloace]

random-

but, if you're friend were black and still from zimbabwe, he'd be african-american... wouldn't he???? see, for me, its not about the color- its about where you're from.

p

 

[Random Access]

Originally posted by poloace
random-

but, if you're friend were black and still from zimbabwe, he'd be african-american... wouldn't he???? see, for me, its not about the color- its about where you're from.

p

Point being, the term is imprecise, and there are people who don't like it (e.g. people from the Caribbean in particular, but also other people I know).

 

[elin]

Originally posted by poloace
random-

but, if you're friend were black and still from zimbabwe, he'd be african-american... wouldn't he???? see, for me, its not about the color- its about where you're from.

p

I don't see why you keep repeating this. On the AAMC website, the definition is listed as BLACK. The African American part is added so that blacks that object to be calling black for whatever reason are not offended. Similar to the way schools list LAtino or Hispanic- you can be Hispanic and be of any race. If you want to put down black in an effort to get over, then do so. Don't act as if this whole problem stems from ambiguity of the definition. When you reach 21+, you should know what race you are. You obviously don't want to be called black, so what's your prob? btw, if you plan on doing this, I hope you don't apply to the same schools you applied to this year. Adcoms will wonder and ask. I know of a girl who did this, and the adcom at that school notified other schools where she applied and she was rejected all around.
Sack up, and use this opportunity to address the weaknesses in your application. I am sure you will get in somewhere either this year or the next cycle.