By Jessica Freedman, MD
President of MedEdits: Medical Admissions
Because the competition for admission to medical schools in the United States is extremely strong, many applicants consider attending medical school in the Caribbean. In fact, a great many bright and talented applicants are now opting to obtain their medical education in the Caribbean.
How can you decide what is the best choice for you? What must you consider in evaluating these schools? And will you be able to obtain a residency in the United States after you graduate? To help you decide if attending a Caribbean medical school is a good choice, this article provides a framework for evaluating these schools and the success of their graduates.
A Little Background
In the last four decades, the Caribbean has seen a steady increase in the number of medical schools on the islands as well as the size of their student bodies. In the late 1970’s three Caribbean medical schools were established: American University of the Caribbean, originally located on the Island of Montserrat, Ross University on the Commonwealth of Dominica, and St. George’s University in Grenada. Since their inception, these schools have educated many US citizens seeking a medical education outside the US, and now about 60 medical schools in the Caribbean are listed in the Foundation for Advancement of International Medical Education and Research (FAIMERs) International Medical Education Directory (IMED).
The physicians who graduate from Caribbean medical schools play an increasingly important role in the US health care system by supplying residency programs with qualified applicants and helping to meet a well documented physician shortage, particularly in primary care medicine. While accreditation, didactic studies (first and second years of medical school), and clinical rotations (third and fourth years of medical school) differ among institutions, requirements for graduate certification in the United States, as outlined by the Philadelphia based Educational Committee on Foreign Medical Graduates, are the same for all students graduating from all international schools, including the Caribbean.
Caribbean Medical School Accreditation
An article by van Zanten et al published in the June 2009 edition of Academic Medicine reviews some of the processes by which Caribbean medical schools undergo external quality assurance. Accreditation for Caribbean medical schools is on several levels, including local Ministry of Health accreditation by some individual Caribbean country’s government, regional accreditation by organizations such as The Caribbean Accreditation Authority for Education in Medicine and Other Health Professions (CAAM-HP). The World Health Organization (WHO) does not accredit medical schools but maintains a list of schools that are recognized by local governments. In the United States, The National Committee on Foreign Medical Education and Accreditation of the US Department of Education (NCFMEA) of the United States Department of Education determines whether the process conducted by an accrediting organization is comparable to the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) process of accreditation. This is a voluntary process so not all schools undergo this evaluation. If a school’s accreditation is deemed comparable to the LCME process, then that country can apply for US federal loans for those students. Currently, only 3 schools in the Caribbean are eligible for these loans.
California, Florida, New Jersey, and New York require individual school review and approval for Caribbean students to do rotations in that state. In California, not only must the individual school be approved for clinical clerkships but the student’s clerkship and course work must be approved by the state medical board to obtain residency and subsequent physician licensure. Any deficiencies in clinical training, as determined by the state, may need to be remediated to practice in California. Many other states defer to California’s approval for the purpose of licensure because most do not have their own approval process. Also of note, New York has the largest number of international medical graduates in residency training and about one third of residency programs in the US are located in the state of New York.
It is important to know which organizations have accredited any school you consider attending. Knowing if the state in which you intend to practice recognizes your school is also important. Caribbean medical schools proudly display these accreditations on their websites so if an accreditation is missing, be wary.
Quality of Medical Education in the Caribbean
Another recent study by van Zanten and Boulet published in Academic Medicine examines the quality of medical education in the Caribbean. The report finds tremendous variability in both the quality of undergraduate medical education and in students’ performance. The only way to evaluate the education Caribbean medical students received was to examine students’ scores on the United States Licensing Exam (USMLE) Step 1, which is taken after the second year of medical school. Investigators calculated the average USMLE Step 1 first time pass rate for each country in the Caribbean. In evaluating this data they also took into account that some islands have more than one medical school. The countries with the highest percentage of students passing the (USMLE) Step 1 on the first attempt were Grenada (84.4 %) and Dominica (69.7%). Countries with the lowest pass rates were Saint Lucia (19.4%) and Antigua/Barbuda (22.9%).
Preclinical Years
Students typically spend the first four to five semesters of medical school in the Caribbean completing basic science courses before taking USMLE Step I. Basic science curriculums in the Caribbean are similar to US curriculums. Some schools offer a fifth semester, either in the Caribbean or in the US, to help students prepare for the USMLE Step 1 and transition to their clinical semesters.
Living in the Caribbean can present many challenges for those who have never lived outside the United States. For many students, it will be their first time away from the United States for a prolonged period of time. Many of the luxuries found in large US cities, such as restaurants, movie theaters, shopping malls, and commercial gyms, are not available on the islands, and friends, family, and religious support groups are thousands of miles away. On the plus side, many students form strong relationships with classmates and also enjoy learning about the history and culture of the local West Indian population. Former students also have fond memories of celebrating yearly holidays such as Carnival, the colorful, festive, and historical event celebrated annually throughout the Caribbean.
After successfully passing the USMLE Step 1, students proceed to their clinical rotations, which usually are outside of the Caribbean. When evaluating schools, it is important to ask what percentage of students who initially enroll in each class actually take and pass the USMLE Step 1 and successfully proceed to clinical rotations.
Clinical Years
Core clinical rotations and third and fourth year curriculum in Caribbean schools resemble those of US medical schools. Caribbean schools that offer clinical training in the US have strict guidelines about the location and quality of students’ clinical training. All core rotations and subinternships must be completed in hospitals with which the Caribbean medical school has an active, written affiliation agreement and which have appropriate clinical faculty members. Rotations must be approved by the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education (ACGME). In addition, it is preferable that hospitals have approved residency training programs (or their British equivalents) in the specialties through which students rotate. Students also take both parts of USMLE Step 2 (clinical knowledge and clinical skills) after the third year.
Hospitals in which electives are taken should also have approved postgraduate programs in those specialties. For example, it is best to do an anesthesia elective at a hospital that has an anesthesiology residency. Regardless of school affiliation, however, individual hospitals still reserve the right to screen individual students for elective clerkship acceptance. Some individual hospitals and departments do not accept international rotating students, which can limit the away electives in which students can participate. From a competitive perspective, it is always preferable to participate in clinical rotations located in hospitals that not only have ACGME accredited residency programs but are academic teaching hospitals rather than community hospitals.
If I Go To a Caribbean Medical School, Can I Get a Residency?
Graduates of Caribbean medical schools have tremendous success in obtaining residency positions, even in competitive specialties. It helps to attend a well-established Caribbean school, perform well on the USMLE Steps 1 and 2, and obtain strong letters of recommendations. (See my previous articles: Getting Into Residency Part 1 and Part 2 for more information.) Before applying for the residency match and early in medical school, students should strategically plan their clinical clerkships in the US, ideally arranging rotations in the settings where they prefer to match. In recent years, Caribbean students with strong academic and clinical performances have been able to obtain competitive residency positions at an increasing rate. However, the largest number of students pursue less competitive specialties, such as internal medicine or family practice. Some students are also able to ”prematch” into residency positions outside of the National Resident Matching Program (NRMP).
When evaluating the success of a Caribbean medical school’s graduates, it is important to find out specifically where and in what specialties students match. Also determine what percentage of fourth year students match into categorical programs. This information may not be easy to obtain. While schools typically publish their match results, it is unclear if these lists are truly comprehensive.
After residency, Caribbean medical students, along with their domestic colleagues, will obtain board certification and must meet specific requirements for state licensure. The quality of one’s residency training usually carries more weight than the medical school attended, so obtaining the best possible residency and even fellowship can help Caribbean students overcome some of the bias foreign students face when competing for competitive attending positions.
Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduate (ECFMG) Certification and Graduate Medical Education Programs
To be eligible for ACGME accredited residency programs in the United States, and for licensure in many states, students who graduate from a Caribbean medical school must obtain an ECFMG certificate. Eligibility for this certificate includes graduating from a medical school listed in FAIMERs online International Medical Education Directory (IMED) and passing the USMLE Steps 1 and 2 (both clinical knowledge and clinical skills). For more details, see the ECFMG website at www.ecfmg.org.
Questions to Ask
School History
- When was the school established?
- What percentage of students are US citizens?
- By whom is the school run and what are the credentials of the academic faculty?
- Has the school had any recent changes in leadership? Are any leadership changes expected?
Caribbean Medical School Accreditation
- By whom is the school accredited and is the school accredited by the states of California, Florida, New Jersey, and New York? Is the school listed in FAIMER’s IMED?
Admissions, Medical Education and Curriculum
- The quality of your medical education begins with the advice you receive prior to attending a Caribbean medical school. Is your premed advisor well versed in the pros and cons of attending medical school in the Caribbean?
- If interviews are required, by whom are they conducted – alumni, administrative staff, faculty and/or current students?
- What are the mean overall and BCPM (biology, chemistry, physics and math) GPAs and MCATS of accepted students? Are MCATs required to submit an application?
- Does the school have more than one matriculating class annually and are admissions rolling? Unlike most US schools, Caribbean medical schools typically have two to three first year classes that begin at different times during the academic year.
- What is the average size of each entering class? Does the size vary depending on the start date?
- How many students enroll in each first year class? What percentage of students who enter as first year students start third year rotations as scheduled? What percentage of first year students match into categorical residencies in the United States during their fourth year? What percentage of first year students graduate? (Understand that graduating does not necessarily mean matching, so both of these questions must be answered.)
Financial Concerns and Living Conditions
- Do most students fund their education using outside loans or scholarships? Are these loans backed by the US government or are they private loans? Does the school offer financial guidance to help students choose the best loans and make responsible financial decisions?
- Where do students live and what are the housing conditions? Does the school provide housing?
Clinical Studies
- Where do students do their clinical training? Can students choose where they do core rotations? Are the rotations ACGME accredited? Do students work alongside US medical students?
- Are students allowed to do elective rotations? How many? Can students do away electives at nonaffiliated hospitals? Does the administration or faculty help students obtain away electives?
Residency Match and Professional Guidance
- Does the school provide guidance to help with the match process? Do students have an assigned advisor to help them?
- Where and in what specialties did students in the most recent graduating classes match for residency, and what percentage of fourth year students matched into categorical residencies?
- What percentage of students do not match annually? What percentage of students must enter the “scramble”? For students who enter the scramble, does the school provide assistance to find an unfilled residency spot?
Alumni and Student Support
- Where do alumni practice geographically, in what specialty and in what type of practice (community or academic)?
- Will the school provide contact information for alumni and current students with whom to speak?
Medical School in the Caribbean
Going to medical school in the Caribbean can be a good option as long as you do your research and make an educated choice. The medical education you will receive in the Caribbean varies tremendously, and the success you will have after graduation depends on many factors. Attending a top Caribbean medical school is a great option for some students but, just as for US medical students, once in school you must “do the right thing” to secure an excellent residency, (See my article Getting Into Residency Part 1 and Part 2.) I have had several Caribbean medical student clients earn residencies in competitive specialties, including anesthesia, emergency medicine, and internal medicine so, yes, it can be done!
Jessica Freedman, MD, a former medical admissions officer, is president of MedEdits (www.MedEdits.com), a medical school, residency and fellowship admissions consulting firm. She is also the author of the MedEdits blog, a useful resource for applicants: (www.MedEdits.blogspot.com).
The author would like to thank Marta van Zanten for clarifying parts of this article.
References
1) van Zanten M, Boulet J R. Medical education in the Caribbean: variability in medical school programs and performance of students. Academic Medicine. 2008;83: s33-s36.
2) van Zanen M, Parkins LM, Karle H, et al. Accreditation of undergraduate medical education in the Caribbean: report on the Caribbean accreditation authority for education in medicine and other health professions. Academic Medicine. 2009;84: 771-775.
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For applicant’s that do not gain entry into a US allopathic school their first time around, would you consider Caribbean schools as being a better alternative to osteopathic schools if one primarily concerned with being able to practice in the US in a slightly competitive sub specialty?
This is a wonderful article. In my experience, the big three schools, AUC, RUSM, SGU are just as good as many LCME-accredited domestic schools and much of the training takes place in the US (2/3). I also agree that getting a great residency/fellowship program is more important than where one attended medical school. Great Job!
Caribbean medical schools shows us how competitive America is for jobs and how much harder it’s becoming with the current economic climate. Smart people are going back to medical school since they realize they should be as qualified as possible to find a guaranteed job.
Tom,
going to an osteopathic school is a much better option than even the best caribbean school unless you are hung up on being an M.D.
I am impressed that the author of this article did not consider Puerto Rico as part of the “Caribbean”. As a matter of fact, Ponce School of Medicine in south Puerto Rico has a fair amount of students from the United States. In addition, the passing rate for the Step 1 is around de high 80’s and many students obtain competitive residencies in the United States. In Puerto Rico, there are 4 Schools of Medicine of which 3 are private and 1 is Public (Medical Sciences Campus of the University of Puerto Rico).They all are LCME accredited. Please consider doing further research on this topic for those United States students that have an erroneous perception of Caribbean Medical Schools. As a nice example, please look who was this year’s highest grade in the Neurology Board Certification Exam, you will be surprised…
Juan Del Pueblo: the article didn’t mention Perto Rican schools as part of the caribbean because these schools are LCME certified and considered not foreign, i.e. part of the US allopathic school system.. you’re not considered a foriegn medical graduate or international medical graduate if you graduate from a puerto rican school… remember puerto rico is a US territory.
I would NEVER consider going to a Caribbean school. I went to a state funded school and am in ENORMOUS debt. If you are doing it “to get a job” or “make yourself more marketable”, you are DEFINITELY doing it for the WRONG reasons. You must REALLY, TRULY want to be a doctor for all the right reasons…altruism etc. to even consider a Caribbean school. You will have to work twice as hard as your LCME peers and pay twice as much for the education. If you end up doing it for the wrong reasons, you will be very bitter when your $2000+/month student loan bill comes and you are making $60,000 as a pediatrician because that’s the only residency you could get into…. Just something to think about!
pretty sure pediatricians make more than 60K, lol.
uh..yeah..john’s right.
But this article is great! I was looking to find some compiled info on Caribbean schools. I mostly hear negative things, like you must be really dumb if you go to a Caribbean school. But this article doesn’t really mention anything about living conditions, I have heard that its pretty rough…?
Ana:
To make up for the slightly lower admission standards, reputable medical schools like Ross Univ., SGU, AUC utilize a faster pace, more challenging, but not impossible, curriculum to ‘balance’ things out. Additionally, all Carribbean medical graduates must pass the ever challening USMLE exams (1,2, CS) prior to residency. And one cannot be ‘really dumb’ to pass these challenging exams.
Path:
The most expensive Carribbean medical school, SGU, costs the same as the majority of private LCME accredited medical schools. And no, pediatricians do not make 60K annually. You may have met one who works part-time (2 days per week).
Lobo:
Having personally witnessed DOs at my hospitals over the years struggled with some of their patients, staff, colleagues regarding their DO status; I’m very glad I chose the quality Carribbean MD route. Everyone I know from my medical school (RUSM) matched into the residencies he/she wanted, are now board certified, and helping people in their communities.
Bottome line is that there are tens of thousands of Carribbean medical graduates in the US providing quality health care in the EDs, outpt clinics, running clinical research labs, rounding on the medical/surgical/psychiatric wards. And many have probably treated your family/friends when they needed us the most. If it wasn’t for these folks, the physicians shortage in our country would be even more dire.
Like Richard I attended medical school in the Caribbean. I was surrounded by bright and interesting peers and we went on to have great careers in medicine. We as a group are helping to alleviate the doctor shortage in this country.
Path: I work as a pediatrician in a large New York City hospital and all of us make between $130,000 – $150,000 annually.
I work alongside graduates of allopathic US schools and Caribbean graduates and I experience no stigma regarding my degree. I am valued and judged on my clinical skills and knowledge – not by where I went to school. I am happy to say that I received a great medical education, residency training and I now have a thriving career.
The author of this article, Dr. Jessica Freedman gives great guidance in this article and her positive tone reflects that those in higher education are not only accepting of but also embrace those who graduated from the Caribbean. Thank you.
To the poster about Peurto Rico being an option. Reason writer doesn’t mention PR is because PR schools are LCME accredited. Thus these people do not need ECFMG certification, and are NOT considered foreign medical graduates. This is why PR is not listed, b/c going to a PR school is the same as going to a school in the US in the eyes of Residency Directors. Also PR schools are just as hard to get into as US. Point of most caribbean schools is those with stats just below us Allopathic can still have a shot of becoming a doctor because the US doesn’t have enough med school seats for them.
Daniel: Actually PR schools are definitely not as hard to get into as compared to the rest of the US allopathic schools. Taken from the 2010-11 MSAR; San Juan Batista School of Medicine Ave GPA: 3.3 Ave MCAT 20….Ponce School of Medicine Ave GPA:3.6 Ave MCAT: 21…. Those are only 2 of the schools, but as you can see have a MCAT average is way lower, generally 5-6 pts below the ave MCAT at any given osteopathic school, and about 10 pts lower than other us allo schools. I believe this is simply due to the fact that you are required to be fluent in Spanish to be admitted at PR schools, which not that many people are.
Richard: I’m not sure what DOs you observed, but the DOs I’ve shadowed (ortho and derm) were very happy with their education and “DO status” as you put it (whatever that means).
No matter what route you go (osteo, us allo, caribbean allo), it’s really all about: how hard you work, that you make the most of your education, and you love what you do because that’s what will make you a great doctor.
“no matter what route you go…” well said John, couldn’t agree with you more
ood post john- agreed
Very good article – definitely helpful for anyone considering a Caribbean medical school, which is probably a great alternative for many. I am a US MD student, but know two physicians, who graduated from Caribbean med schools. Both are highly competent doctors, and one of them is even the director of her hospital’s OB/Gyn department. Few people know that over 20 percent of physicians in the US were educated outside the US. Once you’re practicing, nobody ever evaluates you based on where you went to medical school – an MD is an MD.
John,
Having trained in emergency room medicine,i’ve had the opportunity to train and interact with hundreds of MDs/DOs over the years. I also worked with DOs during my fellowship. As an attending, I’m now supervising some trainees who are DOs. As you know, medical training is intensive so I basically have lived and breathe with these people for many years. Superfically, people may appear ‘happy’ when you interact with them for a short time, i.e., shadowing, but this may not be always how they really feel. In general, I believe osteo. schools produce terrific DO physicians but I do not believe this alternative route has all the advantages some claim it has over the well-established, high quality Carribbean medical schools ( RUSM, SGU, SABA, AUC.).
Wow this article and most of the comments are encouraging. I’m headed down to SGU in a couple of weeks and have been a little nervous about residency placement. At least now I know it can be done. Thanks.
For those of you that attended AUC, Ross or SGU…I have type 1 diabetes and I was wondering what the health care/clinics were like. I appreciate any insight.
Tom, you and other people with personal health issues, who are considering Caribbean medical schools might want to look at AUC in particular. My friend goes to AUC and he says that the island is probably the most developed in the Caribbean, and provides a very americanized/europeanized living environment. St. Maarten has hospitals, private doctor’s offices, pharmacies etc., and some of the island’s amenities are even better than in most parts of the US.
Richard,
How would you rate the top DO schools (PCOM, CCOM, Western) against the top Caribbean schools. Having been accepted to both programs (US MD and DO), I think it is really naive of you to suggest that osteopathic programs produce physicians with any less advantage/opportunities than their allopathic counterparts. WVSOM has been consistently ranked as one of the top medical schools in the country for primary care. By law US DO= US MD but that does not go for Caribbean grads. If one of your arguments is that DO’s find it hard to specialize then I suggest you look at some recent match lists of schools such as LECOM-Bradentom and UMDNJ-SOM. If another one of your arguments is that DO’s are not recognized internationally then I suggest that by looking into it further you will see that the D.O. is recognized in 45 countries and that it is not easy for a physician regardless of title to set up shop anywhere in the world. I have worked my ass off to get into an american medical school and have friends that did not even take the MCAT and got into places such as ROSS and SMU in the Caribbean. I have a cousin that was expelled from school and arrested for drug related charges but was accepted into a carribean medical school. So Richard I hope you get off your high horse and give some reasons why you think a Caribbean grad has more advantages than an American DO grad.
I think a physician is a physician and its all about your knowlege and rapport with your patients that matters. The DR in OHio who was credited with the first facial reconstructive surgery ( plastic surgeon) is an IMG…..same as numerous reputable doctors produced from schools outside the United States. As far as carribean medical schools, the most reputable once i can speeak for ….ross, auc, stgeorges and saba. I agree with Dr Freedmann that residency is what it all comes down too. I have seen students from these medical school match into competitive specialty and yes even neurosurgery, opthalmology e.t.c. Sunny upstate has a guy from Ross in their neurosurgery program who is a chief resident.
In regards with kevin’s post Dos are medical doctors and i dont think the field of medicine has any inferiority or superiority to it ….although Dos are medical doctors in the States ..osteopathy is a different field of health care in other country which might pose some kind of misconception with the country’s medical board. Lastly Ross, SGU and AUC requires the MCAT and by the way surprisingly these schools numbers have been going up recently. I know SGU has numbers close with lower tier MDs and DO stats …same with ross ……you do have to do your research when you choose medical schools either way …..sgu, auc , ross , saba …seems legit to me.
Jude…I agree that hard work, good letters of rec and board scores will help any applicant get a competitive residency but the fact is that being an American graduate with the criteria listed above will put you above an FMG with the same credentials. The only school that I know has a competitive applicant pool is SGU. I have four friends currently at ross with mcat scores ranging from 14-18 and low GPA’s but I understand that getting in is not the hard part…its staying there. As for DO’s international practice rights I’m glad you understand that osteopathy is not the same thing as osteopathic medicine and in order to practice in other countries you have to go through alot of red tape and examinations regardless of being an M.D. or D.O. (for example in England you have the M.B.B.S. instead of M.D.). Another thing that applicants looking to apply to foreign medical schools should consider are the huge class sizes that might make it tough for some students to reach their academic potential. If you look at the match lists for SGU this year you will notice that out of the huge number of students only a tiny minority got into competitive residencies while 0 got into radiology.
Kevin, I have personally spoken to chairs of several residency programs and they all said that it really does not matter if one is a US grad or a FMG. Some residency programs do strongly recommend at least some US clinical rotations, which is done by all Caribbean MDs, where all clinicl rotations are in the US, as well as by many other FMGs.
What is actually much more important for residency is your academic performance, USMLE scores, and letters from clinical faculty. It might be that you have friends at Ross with low credentials, but the fact is that the top Caribbean schools (SGU and AUC) have average MCAT scores that are actually higher (26 and 25 respectively) than those of the majority of DO schools.
Also, you are wrong about the international differences in medical degrees. An M.B.B.S. equals an M.D….period – when a let’s say British or Australian medical graduate earns his/her ECFMG certificate after passing all steps of the USMLE, the M.B.B.S. gets automatically converted into an M.D., as both degrees are internationally recognized as the same….only the spelling is different. “Doctor of Medicine” gets abbreviated differently in different countries – Another example is Germany, where it’s Dr.med. When a German physician comes to the US, his Dr.med. degree simply gets converted into M.D. This is of course not possible with a D.O.
I have personally never heard of any D.O. practicing outside the US, and I am unfamiliar with the licensing process that this would entail. It makes me generally upset when people regard non-US medical degrees as inferior considering that some of the world’s best medical schools are in Europe, Israel, Australia etc. Thinking that US-trained physicians are superior in any way is very closed-minded and ignorant.
I don’t believe that there is anything wrong with getting a D.O., especially if you are planing to go into primary care, and do not intend to pursue allopathic residencies and fellowships. You need to understand, however, that many people simply don’t want to be a D.O. out of different reasons. It is a nontraditional medical degree, which will make you different from 99.9 percent of doctors in the world. Also, it’s philosophy and curriculum are not for everyone.
Carl,
You might have talked to chairs of several residency programs but it does matter in general in the united states if you are a graduate of one of its medical schools or one that is foreign. You cannot possibly argue that a foreign medical student with the same credentials will get a residency position over an american graduate…it will never happen. An american MD cannot just move to england and start practicing medicine, he/she has to pass the plab exams in order to get certified. Germany is actually one of the 45 countries that recgonizes the D.O. degree and will grant full practice rights and you can check with the AOA with the full list of countries granting D.O.’s full practice rights (remember osteopathy is totally different from osteopathic medicine). As I mentioned before you CANNOT just go abroad as an MD and start practicing anywhere in the world that you like…you have to go through each nation’s certification process and there is no country in the world that would reject an american medical graduate and for your information MOST of the Caribbean schools are not recognized in Europe so forget about international practice rights…I think SGU grads are the only ones able to go back to practice in england. I do not doubt that the “top” caribbean schools are getting more competitive to get into but the numbers you provided are sorely misplaced (most likely from the school itself)…the schools are all profit based and will hand over admission to whoever has the deeper pocket. As for D.O.’s practicing outside the U.S., I have shadowed numerous D.O.’s that practice both in the U.S. and abroad…as I mentioned before that being an american graduate will open doors anywhere. Your statement that D.O.’s have a hard time getting allopathic residences is WRONG…check the match lists of almost every single DO school and you will see that more than a majority of the graduates match into competitive allopathic residencies while the others CHOOSE to do an osteopathic one. Your claim that an osteopathic physician has a “nontraditional degree” is ridiculous..by US LAW A US DO=US MD. D.O.’s take the EXACT SAME courses as their allopathic counterparts as well as taking additional courses in osteopathic manipulative medicine. I am not saying that US trained doctors are the best in the world…I am saying that in order to further your career in the UNITED STATES it is better served to attend MEDICAL SCHOOL IN THE UNITED STATES (either MD or DO). There is no need to argue this anymore….going to medical school in the Caribbean should be the VERY LAST OPTION for a student thinking about practicing in the united states.
Kevin, you did not seem to understand the point that people made about the comparison between the two options. The main question here is whether a prospective medical student actually wants to be a D.O. Again, I am attending a US allopathic school, but I know people in both of the two other camps. For all of them I know that it was a second choice, both for the off-shore AND osteopathic folks. If I did not get into a US allopathic school, I would have rather gone abroad than go to a D.O. school, simply because I want to be an M.D. and think that nearly all students at osteopathic schools are not there because they actually want to be D.O.s, but because that’s where they got in. Of course you have many opportunities as a D.O., but so do FMGs. It is crucial to note that not all Caribbean med schools are created equal. A lot of them are not accredited, while two or three of them have had terrific success producing quality graduates. When you look at the facts, you will see that the first-time pass rate of the USMLE1 is higher among students from both St. George’s and AUC versus D.O. schools (~90% vs 82%).
Regarding the for-profit status, I think a for-profit D.O. school just opened in Colorado last year. Also, no one was saying that it is necessarily harder to specialize as a D.O. than an M.D., but the actual purpose and philosophy of osteopathic medicine places emphasis on primary care, a fact that many D.O.s often like to ignore.
excellent non-biased comments, David and Carl. Having sat on the residency selection committees in residency, fellowship, and now as an attending at NE (not NYC) academic centers, there really is no limit for MDs and DOs regardless of where one went to medical schools. I regularly recommend DOs to my programs if they have good scores, LORs, and engaging. And once in a while, some do match with us and they turned out great. Generally, pre-medical students like Kevin and others tend to think that life as physicians stop when they get the residency of their choice, and then their lives are complete. Unfortunately, this is not always the case as my previous comments were geared toward many years of working with MD vs. DO residents. Just as the BU medical students who had been arrested for murder, surgeons/rad. onc botching procedures, students who got into allpathic med schools with MCAT of 21-23, or the 4′11 guy dating a pretty 5′10 girl; these are exceptions and not the rule. When one looks at the bimodal, bell shape mcat scores distribution there are few individuals with scores on the extreme end ( 14 vs. 43) and most people falls in the middle (20s-30s). I don’t doubt his story of knowing 4 friends with mcat of 14-16 (although he claimed earlier that Ross accepts people without MCAT scores, which is not true) AND having had friends with legal problems admitted to offshore med schools- again these would be rare exceptions and not the rule. RUSM requires a letter of good standing from a local police department, btw. To the best of my knowledge, the average MCAT scores/GPA/etc. schools like RUSM, SGU, AUC (also founders of the colorado DO school!) are accurate as they had to produce evidence when the texas, ny, ca, etc boards of medical educations visited the school recently and found that the medical education provided at Ross is equal to the medical schools in their respective states. I won’t go into the details but there is alot of behind the scene activities between schools like Ross, SGU with organizations like the AMA, sallie mae, us dept of education, etc.. to keep their affiliations with numerous acgme hospitals affiliations and federal loans in the US. Bottom line is that good Carribbean medical schools like Ross and SGU are good option for aspiring physicians and certainly not the last option.
Good comments from everyone. Surely there have been caribbean grads go into neuro, ortho, radiology etc… but these are largely exceptions and I think the author does a disservice by really sugar coating this issue. I have witnessed several FMG’s spend 1-2 years doing research and/or pre-lim years in order to secure surgical residencies and not all received those spots at the end of the day. I think what this article boils down to is, Caribbean MD or DO? If you want primary care it won’t matter, but if you want a competitive speciality in the US, DO is better.
David: you have to understand that not all DO students take the USMLE’s and not all students report their USMLE scores after having taking the exam therefore the 82 percentile pass rate you mentioned is inaccurate. As for almost every DO student being an allopathic reject is laughable. You truly are misguided. There are alot of DO schools with admissions criteria higher or on par with mid tier allopathic schools. There are tons of students that got into both programs like me but chose the osteopathic school because it is where they felt more comfortable. Your comparison of FMG’s being the same as American DO’s is completely false as well. In the United States a D.O. is considered an AMERICAN GRADUATE thus opening more doors to get competitive specialties vs. FMG’s. You cannot argue this point…just go compare match results of the top carib schools vs some DO schools.
Richard: The people that I know that got into ross without the mcat tranferred from a medical school in england. I do not doubt that the top carib schools might provide an excellent education as you are an FMG yourself but you have to look at statistics in general. As JD stated above me, if a student wants to get into primary care then by all means go to either a DO or FMG program but if someone wants to specialize then the best way is to stay IN THE UNITED STATES (DO or MD).
Oh and richard….please provide some arguments as to why a Carib grad is better off than an American DO grad as you previously stated that they are not “truly” happy lol.
JD: Based on my experience, Caribbean medical students who have outstanding scores, letters of reference, written documents, interview skills and guidance, can obtain competitive residency positions. Sugar coating aside, Caribbean students who are talented and motivated can excel.
Thanks Dr. Freedman for this very thorough and unbiased article. As many people have already mentioned, it is the individual student that makes the difference, not the fact whether one comes from a US med school or is a FMG, or even whether is an MD or DO. DOs do tend to get better residencies on average than FMGs simply because they have the option to go into osteopathic residencies, and the AOA only considers DOs for their own programs. When one looks at allopathic programs only, however, FMGs may even do slightly better than DOs. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Also, wouldn’t a bunch of DO students not reporting their USMLE actually increase their average, since lower scores would tend to not be reported as much?
Concerning students individual choices, and I have known many pre-med and medical students, and I have NEVER heard of anyone choosing DO over US MD. However, I have heard of several people, who preferred the FMG rather than the DO route.
I think reading the post especially Kevins, we are missing the whole point of medicine which is basically how well you treat, interact and provide care with the best of your abilities with your patients. Remember patient is “key” not school.This will become evident as you are aligned with resident doctors from a wide array of schools …might be FMG, AMG, or Dos. I have recently spoke with some PD about their residency selection and one thing that stuck up was …they do not differentiate for the most part applicant and schools …you do have to talk about your basic science education and the school you went to but in the normal selection of applicants you are compared based on your board scores, research experience, and clinical and basic performance. I read a post once about students from Loma Linda who went for residency interviews and had to explain to the PDs maybe their school was an MD or DO school….this is what normally happens or else your school is well known ., some program directors have no clue about some of the schools., which is where your interpersonal communication comes into place. I think we seem to be missing the point also that 20% of physician workforce in the U.S are IMG/FMG. In the state of Newyork majority of physicians practicing in that state are foreign graduate. Dos like I said earlier are physicians of course but people often struggle with their philosophies…the region I live in …there are very few Dos around here and its sometimes difficult when patients dont know much about DOs being physicians…..but anyways it comes down to you maybe FMG, AMG or DOs. And kevin there is no last resort in medicine…the field is grueling itself …there are so many more decisions you will have to make in the future that might seem like a last resort but its probably the best decision you will make. Lastly when we compare FMGs/IMGs or viewing them as lesser than AMG ..lets not forget that some of the best medical schools in the world even equivalent to our IV leagues are also FMGs. Cambridge medical school in England, Royal college of physician and surgeons in Ireland and trinity college Dublin are also in the list. I dont see any difference btw these schools and the best of school(s) in the United States. I would like to mention also that you might have great board scores and bad interview skills or the other way around …and your chances of matching might some time depend solely on your interview skills.
I think it is interesting how this has generated a DO vs Carib debate. There certainly is some misinformation going both ways. The majority of DO students are americans and will practice in America…so practice rights in other countries are irrelevent, though most modern countries has a pathway to licensure (the list is online). As for everyone going DO as a second choice, there certainly are those who did not get into allo and so chose osteo, how many will never be known but it is certainly not everyone. Many people certainly like the point of view or they like the manipulation or some combination of both. As for the Carib schools each of those big four post their match lists and instead of stating “carib matches better or DO matches better” compare them. There certainly are many carib students matching to great places in great specialties. However, the attrition for those schools is high (arguably because thats part of their process) and many in fact do match into FP/IM. The DO students do have the option of DO residencies but a high percentage do match to allopathic residencies and fellowship and this can be quantitatively shown that only about half of the DO residencies are filled…the rest of the classes went allo. So to say they have no chance or little is incorrect and misinformation and many of the better DO schools (PCOM, the state based ones OU, UMDNJ, OSU; DMU, COMP and NOVA’s list was also great) show a high percentage of competive specialites and IM matches.
Someone above remarked that DO is for primary care and that specialties are hard to get, it is true that DO schools seem to push primary care as their mission, however so do about a large amount of MD schools as everyone tries to fill the “primary care gap” the students say “ok” and do the best they can and go into what they feel matches them and what they are competitive for. I think that overall whether you went UsMD, UsDO or carib you try to do the best you can. Some residencies do like DO’s, some dont like IMG, some dont care. I personally had an MD acceptance but chose DO because I like the patient centered approach, whereas the carib for me personally was not an option because i felt it was 100% a “2nd” option.
I intend to take the USMLE though many allo residencies are currently accepting COMLEX as well. I am also interested in pursuing internal medicine and a cardio fellowship. Before I get a million comments about it will be difficult remember that nearly ever DO cardiologist (there are plenty according the ACC website) went to allopathic residency and fellowship as there have only recently been osteo-only cardio fellowships…and this can be generalized to just about every osteopathic phyiscian who is a fellowship,
Lastly..I doubt that most patients care, the DO’s that I know have been asked little in their career and remark that the only people who care are pre-meds. Most people see “physician” and thats the end of it.
Son of a DO allopathically trained interventional cardiologist and current DO student.
I would like to amend what i wrote due to my iphones annoying habit of replacing words..
When talking about residencies..it was “some DONT like DO’s, some DONT like IMG, Some DONT care”
And with regard to generalizing to other DO specialist being allopathically trained (yes there are many specialty osteo residencies that train well) it should have read “every other osteopathic physician who is HAD a fellowship” instead of how “is a fellowship”
sorry…blame apple
All this talk of Caribbean Medical Schools being no good is quite crappy. People who go to these universities are not dumb! Caribbean students are very smart! Its just that they cannot afford better university education. I have 15 friends who applied to MIT and they all got admitted on their A-level results…they never went because they couldnt afford it. I did 12 subjects (English Language, Literature, Math, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Human Biology, Information Technology, Geography, Agricultural Science, Spanish and EDPM) at CSEC (yes 12!) and I am currently doing 7 A-levels (Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics, Further Mathematics, Psychology and Astronomy) and i plan to attend a Caribbean Medical School. I also did up to Grade V in Music Theory and Practicals. I did SAT2 – Biology (760), Chemistry (800) and Physics (780). I am a volunteer at an Orphanage, I am a champion debator and i have written 67 poems (i have not published as yet) in standard english, Shakespearean English, Creole and Spanish. Am i dumb?? My friends are all just a tad behind me…are they dumb?
With regards to attrition rates, this discussion should be reserved for people who complete their four years of medical education, and pass their USMLE exams. To use attrition as a criticism of a school to me is silly. The schools are accepting some people with non-stellar academic backgrounds, and giving them the opporunity to get back in the race by passing their courses and their steps. If they can’t make it, that is certainly no fault of the school
With regards to living conditions, I think this is pretty subjective, and in my 20 months in St. Maarten, I had no complaints at all. In fact, I often yearn for the beach and a cold drink.
Academically, the basic sciences at the big 3 schools focus on 2 things, preparation for Step 1, and preparing students for the wards (just as U.S. schools do). And if a Caribbean student has passed the USMLE exam, and can function in clerkships (many times alongside U.S. students), then the school has done its job.
If in the rotations alongside U.S. students, we learn patient care to prepare us for residency, and the knowledge to pass step 2 and shelf exams (all of which U.S. students do), then the schools are doing the same job U.S. schools do.
There are three areas of inferiority I do see:
First is the stigma. People say “oh, this guy must be an idiot, his GPA in undergrad was only 3.3, how can he be a good doctor if he didn’t get accepted to a U.S. school?”.
Second is the lack of an academic/research envronment. Caribbean schools are USMLE oriented, not research oriented, which makes it very difficult for them to be at the front lines.
Third is that sometimes Caribbean students can feel lost at sea in clinicals when we have no campus. We can only communicate with coordinators by phone and email, and it can be very difficult to schedule your rotations as you want.
Clearly none of these things are problems at U.S. schools, but really other than these three, where does the superiority complex come from?
Do you guys think there are enough medical schools in the U.S. to meet the demand of physicians?
For pharmacy schools, I feel that new schools are popping up way too quickly. Pharmacy students “plan B” seems to be attending these newly opened schools w/ pre-candidate or no accreditation.
I’m a staff physician recruiter for placement firm that specializes in MD’s. I can’t seem to get a clear answer on PR medical schools/residency programs. Although PR’s are US citizens, it does not appear that the medical programs are comparable to the US since 37 states will not license them without additional US training (such as a residency). As always, the top, high paying jobs in the U.S. go to people trainined at the top U.S. colleges/universities. This is within any field. In the medical field, where a doctor does his/or her training is very important in how well respected they are and how much they will be paid. It’s not about how ‘good’ the programs are it’s about how much weight it carries with employers. End of story.
Spycegrl-
I’m a bit in the dark about where PR medical schools reside. My impression from speaking to MDs who attended PR medical schools is that some of them are LCME accredited=US allopathic MD schools but the others are not. I believe there are 4 total on the island. Regardless, i believe these schools are rather difficult to get into if you are not a PR resident and not of american-hispanic ethnicity.
I’m surprised Dominican Republic was not mentioned.
@ Richard and Spycegirl. There is a little bit of dis-information about PR schools. ALL PuertoRican Schools are LCME accredited (I can tell you this because I was part of the Accreditation Student Comittee that represented my school The School of Medicine of the University of Puerto Rico is “state” funded. Therefore, because its purpose is to create physicians to stay in, students must have really strong ties with the Island.In addition, as high as 60% of the students that get in UPR school of Medicine come from the University of Puerto Rico with really high GPA’s and nice MCAT Scores. The other 30-40% come from really nice schools in the U.S. including Harvard, Tufts, Cornell, etc. These guys are not your typical “low scorers” but they take advantage of the fact that they have ties with PR and education is cheap (tuition — 12 000 per year) and competitive.
Many people think this is the top school of the island and I agree. As far as residency programs, residents have to take their boards just as any other resident in the US and they DO practice in the US. Requisites may vary according to State which may need one year of service, etc. Maybe you have confused MD’s who go to Dominican Republic and Mexico (which have not taken their USMLE’s) who then come to PR and can’t practice in the U.S. unless they pass them.
Note: There are many Puerto Rican students who could not enter any of the schools of Medicine in Puerto Rico and end up in Mexico or Dominican Republic due to low MCAT scores and/ or GPA.
To my knowledge, Ponce of School of Medicine and UCC (not sure about SJB) accepts students from the United States.
Bottom line –> Puerto Rican Medical Schools ARE LCME accredited = any U.S. School.
–> Students match within their specialty of choice with a high rate and can practice in any part of the US (requisites may vary by state). License is equivalent.
Please let me know if I can clarify any other misconceptions.
Juan
An MD is an MD. When their lives are in danger, these patients dont give a crap where you graduated from. Sometimes it’s not what you know, but WHO you know that matters when it comes to residency.
Unlike the Constitution, “not all MD’s are created equal”.
Hi all,
I recently graduated from college in May with a B.S. in Biology and a minor in Spanish. I graduated Phi Beta Kappa with a 3.78 GPA. I worked in a colorectal cancer lab for 2 years, and did other cancer research in the summer. I also volunteered in a hospital and worked on campus at a health organization. I did not do very well on my MCAT, I took it twice and got in the low 20s each time. Needless to say I was absolutely devastated and even depressed. I want to be a doctor more than anything, and it really hurts me to see people who test well on the MCAT and get accepted to American medical schools, even though they don’t really want to be doctors. I honestly don’t want to keep re-taking the MCAT because it’s expensive, stressful, and time consuming. I opted to go to graduate school at one of the best universities in the world (in London) and get a masters degree in Physiology. I thought at least this way I am still getting an education, expanding my horizons as a person, and having some fun along the way.
My question is: do you recommend applying at Caribbean Medical Schools or applying to PA schools in the US? I heard there are programs PAs can do to obtain an MD. I went to a seminar about the new medical school in St. Kitts (UMHS-SK) and it looked legit; they say their students get US residencies (only the first 2 years are in the Caribbean and the next year is done in Maine).
What do you recommend? MD in the Caribbean or PA in the US? I think I would be happy either way, I just want a future at this point!
Thank you for your time,
Becca
@Juan… that’s funny, but what’s the connection between the Constitution and an MD? The Constituion words of equality only referred to women too, so I don’t know about that faulty connection you’re trying to make. If you’re wheeled into an ER, I doubt you’re going to ask the doctor which med school he attended before he or she treats you. You just want to be helped. There are extremely bright people like Becca who just don’t test on the MCAT well and are unfortunately denied admission to a US med school. Also, I’ve met some extremely awesome MD’s that graduated from the islands and I have nothing but respect for them. I would never look down on them. It’s nice to have a big name school on your diploma don’t get me wrong, but I’d be happier getting the residency program of my choice. In the bigger scheme of things, we’re all on the same boat together saving lives. It’s the person who earned those two letters that matter most.
@Becca
Apply DO!
Becca,
Try applying to any of the well-established schools like Ross, SGU, AUC, SABA before thinking of attending any of the newer schools. You only spend a little over a year ( 16 months at Ross) outside the US with 2 week breaks every 3 months or so. For me and most of my friends, our island experiences was more pleasant than returning to the US and certainly better than surviving our residencies. You can also go the DO route but I would advice against applying to PA or NP schools because you’ll basically work as a resident for the rest of your life.
Becca:
If you really want to be a doctor, then why would you go to PA school. I would not recommend going to any of the newer offshore schools like the one you are mentioned. If you go Caribbean, only SGU, AUC, Ross, and Saba are fully recognized by the US Dept. of Education. I am sorry you’re MCAT has been such a hurdle for you. Caribbean schools will take you with a decent score and decent grades. You’re grades and everything else about your resume looks excellent so I think you’ll get accepted to any of the best Caribbean schools. You can apply for any semester starting not only in September, but also January, and sometimes May at most of these schools. Definitely look into that option.
My friends who have been attending Caribbean schools, have had nothing but good things to say so far, and commented that living outside of the US for 1.5 years has been much more of a benefit than an inconvenience. I don’t understand why some people make such a big fuss about leaving the US. It might be one’s only chance to live in a foreign country and broaden one’s horizons.
Again, if you want to be a physician and cannot secure admission to a US MD school, go to a Caribbean or other foreign four-year medical program. If you do well there, it will get you where you want to be.
Oh, you also may want to look into DO schools as well if you like the philosophy and this alternative take on medicine.
Excuse my typos in my first post.
Thank you everyone. I appreciate your comments. I will look into the better known Caribbean medical schools.
Dan,
The DO philosophy and alternative take on medicine is merely a historic difference. Allopathic medicine has adopted the osteopathic philosophy on patient-centered care and preventive medicine, and it is now impossible to tell the difference between DOs and MDs aside from the letters after their name.
My belief is, if you want to stay in the US for all 4 years of med school, have all your clinical rotations at hospitals in the same area with no hassles about being approved, and have the option of obtaining a highly competitive residency like orthopedic surgery, neurosurgery, or dermatology without competing against 25000 MD candidates, you should go the DO route.
Well, the frequently mentioned smaller competition among DOs for DO residencies does not hold true anymore due to the increasing DO class sizes and newly opened DO schools, while the number of DO residencies is not increasing. A lot of DOs actually apply to MD residencies, because there are much fewer DO residency slots relative to the number of DO graduates. They also have simply a lot more options when they apply to MD residency programs. In previous years, especially in the 80s and 90s, competition for DO residencies wasn’t as bad, but today DO schools are producing a lot more graduates leaving limited residency slots in more competitive specialties. That’s why the frequently presumed “advantage” of DOs for residencies is not really that accurate. The most competitive residencies simply go to the most qualified individuals. The “route” itself to one’s medical degree does not really give you an advantage or disadvantage.
Surprised Saba was not mentioned in here. Although established later than AUC, Ross, and St. George’s, Saba maintains a first-time pass rate of 90%.
@Aaron, Im a US medical student and I hold no bias against where anyone has gone to school, but with your statement you are not making FMG’s look any better. What does your freinds turning down MIT have to do with anything? For one, they dont even have a medical school and for another carribean schools tuition is one of the highest in the world. Please, dont make a dumb statement and follow it up by asking if your dumb because the answer is always going to be yes!
That’s why I chose D.O. People need to open their eyes. In other countries, if you can’t get into medical school, you’re S.O.L. but here in America, we have a deeply rooted system of medical education called osteopathy. The only difference clinically from DO to MD is merely historical (and a letter). [However, D.O.s have to learn everything MD plus a few hundred more hours of OMM, which I believe only makes me a better doctor)
I graduated with a tough degree Molecular Biology and Microbiology with a 3.8 GPA. Took the MCAT twice and both got a 24 (I just suck with these standardized testing - it was the same story with my SAT) Spent almost 5 grand in MCAT prep, primary and secondary fees, and plane and hotel fees for medical school interview. I will poke my eyes out before I go through the application process again.
Reasons for me to choose D.O.
1. Got accepted to arguably the best D.O. school - PCOM (which is older than a lot of MD schools)
2. Will not waste another year of my life trying to apply (we only average 26700 days to live - 75 x 365)
3. Tired of all the faking to make my application look good. (I don't like research so stop telling me it's so critical) Plus, All the officers in my preAMSA club were only in it to make their application look good - they could care less about the club.
4. My mentor, best doctor in the world, Dr. Rampil is a D.O.
5. Contrary to what some dumb premeds think (I was one), nobody outside the premed community cares about the letters D.0./M.D.
6. Probably the absolute number one reason that I chose D.O. over Caribbean was that there was this ONE slacker cheating chick that was in my undergrad class. She cheated in everything and I absolutely hated it. Everybody knew it (she was even caught a few times but never got kicked out) and hated it too. But when it was time for applications she was rejected from every school, MD and DO programs (and she applied to a LOT of schools - over 30 total) [I love Karma] Anyways, she bragged to me one day that she got accepted to 3 medical schools. “Oh, Where?” I asked. She responded “Caribbean” schools.
These are just my opinion on Caribbean schools and what made me choose what I chose. I’m neither right nor wrong.
Hi
This article was great and contained very valuable information. I almost gone through all replies and almost everyone named just four Carabbean universities AUC, Ross, St. George’s and Saba. I got accepted to the Medical University of the Americas and was wandering that does anybody have any information to share about this University. Is this an accredited one or why it’s tuition fee is almost half of the above universities which make me to think twice before accepting the offer. I really appreciate if somebody give me some information about this university.
There’s been a lot of discussion of the Carrib vs. DO option, but I’m wondering about DO/Carrib vs. say, a top school in Germany. I have an undergraduate degree from the US and got into the 2nd year (out of 6) of a German med school. The GPA on my degree from the University of Chicago was low-ish (3.2) because I originally thought I was just going to graduate school so I thought I should take this opportunity. I came to Germany without realizing the potential disadvantages I’d have when applying for a residency back home. Does anyone know what kind of boat people from well-respected European med schools are in when applying to the US (as compared to Carrib.)? I plan to do my final year fo clinical rotations in the US. In germany the tuition is $1,500 pery year, but you have to learn German fluently. Will I be at enough of a disadvantage applying for desirable resdiencies in midrange competitive specialties (like EM) that I should consider reapplying for med school in the US, which would also take another 4 years?
Not that there’s any universal right answer, but I’d really appreciate the perspective of someone in the know.
I would like to respond to Dan’s post. Of course there are many European doctors in the US. My dermatologist at UChicago for example is from Greece and went to med school in Athens. Unfortunately you cannot simply apply and enroll in most European medical schools. Also, Germany’s medical schools are all 6-year programs, and I think so are all other regular medical programs in Europe. You have to be a citizen of one of the EU countries to be accepted, have graduated high school with IB (international baccalaureate), and of course be fluent in the language of instruction (German or whatever applicable for other countries).
However, there are a couple of 4-year programs for US students in Ireland, Poland, Israel, and a few other countries. Everything there is in English, and is completely open to US-citizens. Check out http://www.atlanticbridge.com – it lists all the US-modeled programs in Ireland.
You must know though that grads from other foreign medical schools usually have a slight disadvantage compared to Caribbean grads, since Caribbean students do all of their clinicals in the US, and Caribbean schools have very well established connections to US hospitals through their partnerships. Also, many residency programs strongly recommend US clinical experience – some even require it.
The bottom line is that the best choice is always a US MD school. Going to school in Europe might be a fantastic experience, but might also be a more risky choice when it comes to residencies. Going Caribbean (but only to one of the big three) would be a safe alternative, since they would give you the full US clinical experience, and prepare you virtually identically as in the US.
Hope that helps.
And with Dan I meant Ben. Sorry!
It is up to the individual… the arguments over DO/FMG/AMG are for the academically immature seeking the degree for the wrong reasons. If you want to be a physician I advise to stay away from message boards. The majority of the comments are written by amateur pre-med students, generally negative, and most of the time not at all accurate. Contact the hospitals/residency programs you are interested in and ask them directly what credentials are needed and meet those credentials. After all, they are holding the position you want so ask them what they need and discuss with them your plan!
Hard work, networking, confidence and passion fill the holes in any medical program. Make connections early and DON’T listen to people who ARE NOT already where you want to be!
I am currently completing three doctorates (DC MD PhD). I wouldn’t be able to if I listened to the negative feedback from people who couldn’t see themselves in the shoes I’m wearing today. Surround yourself with positive reinforcement, take small steps, and you’ll achieve what YOU want. In the end you will be treating patients while the others are still having the same old silly arguments.
Whether you decide on DO, FMG, or AMG use the unique attributes of each, (whether it is holistic therapies, experiencing a different country, etc.) to your advantage. Regarding the stigma that the ignorant depicts… at the end of the game the king and pawn go back into the same box.
So it is up to you… and I will tell you one thing for certain: You cannot be at the right place at the right time sitting at the computer.
This is about Ben’s post. I admire your consideration to go to medical school in Europe, and wanting to take on this adventure. However, you must know that medical schools in Europe usually all have 6-year programs. Also, you will need to speak the language of instruction fluently, have an IB high school degree, and be a EU citizen in order to be considered.
However, there are a few programs that are 4-year programs in Ireland and Poland I believe that are open to US citizens (tuition is much higher though than for EU citizens). Outside Europe, Israel and Australia have 4-year programs in partnership with US hospitals. Generally, those schools can be a very good option, especially if you want to experience a truly internationally oriented medical education.
I could not agree more with “eviscerator.” You are absolutely right that the hype about which path is better becomes irrelevant once you are actually in med school. My suggestion is that it’s not worth waiting another four years in order to maybe then enroll in a US medical school, when you could already be a doctor at that point.
Has anyone here gone to a medical school located in India?
Kevin:
Sounds like you have been defending your DO degree your whole life, man why are you so mad. “US LAW DO=MD!!” Hah, calm down dude. You are the most wound up DO in the world. Just admit that you went to DO school because you did not get accepted to MD school, and then let it go. You will feel a lot better in the morning.
Kevin, you do sound like a lot of DO students I know. Please do not keep reiterating that a DO equals an MD – this is simply not true, and maybe you then should have reapplied to MD programs in the first place. I hope you will not try to “defend” your degree your entire career, but rather embrace its differences. Sorry, but I am tired of DO students perpetuating the idea that they are the same as MDs. Their DO degree makes them different and unique within the medical field, and I always thought that’s why they chose it, or didn’t they?
Also I would like to ask everyone here to please stick with the actual topic of discussion.
Here’s an outline of my story:
USMLE scores Step 1: 216
1) American born
2) MCAT many years ago (took it one time): 29
3) Graduated from UCLA: 3.5 GPA science and 3.6 overall
4) Many years of experience as an EMT, cardio tech and BLS instructor
5) Did not get in to any US med school
6) Attended and graduated from AUC (St. Martin) and received MD
7) Did clinical rotations (3rd year/4th year) California and Chicago, Ill
Step 2CK: 225
Step 2CS: passed on the first try
Step 3: 220
9) Did residency (Internal Med) at USC (Southern California)
10)Completed fellowship (Critical Care/Pulm)
11) Doing well and happy with where I went and what I’ve accomplished and continuing to accomplish
I think that this SDN article about DO vs MD from 2007 answers many of the questions.
http://www.studentdoctor.net/2007/09/doctor-of-osteopathic-medicine-or-doctor-of-medicine-which-one/
Amy is an example that there are many highly qualified students, who did not get into US MD programs. Also, her example shows that an FMG can get into excellent residency programs even WITHOUT a high USLME score (216 is only about average). Did you get your first choice Amy (both for residency and fellowship)?
Hello,
I think if everyone’s ultimate goal is to practice medicine and treat patients, which it should be if you want to be doctor, what comes after your name shouldn’t be such an issue.
To be quite honest, a patient is not really going to care what you got on your MCAT or if you are DO or went to the Caribbean just how well you treat them when they need you.
No one can deny, that there are amazing doctors that are DO’s, Caribbean graduate MD’s and MD’s from the states just like there are not so great doctors from these same categories. It comes down to the individual and how they take their education, skills and experience to be the best doctor they can be.
Instead of arguing about who is better everyone should recognize that each brings something different to the field of medicine and all should be given equal amount of respect and value.
Just my two cents!
Thanks for your replies. I guess I hadn’t made it clear in my post, but I actually have already enrolled in a German university and I already have a BA degree. I was able to do the first two years in one year, so it will total 5 years until I’m done. I figure that’s extra time I can research or study for USMLEs. I already learned fluent German, so that’s taken care of.
Also, I just want to note that you can get in to Germany through 3 avenues: IB degree, 5 AP exams + HS diploma, or BA degree. You definitely do not need EU citizenship. I have the BA degree, which admittedly sets me back a bit, but I’m not much older than the average German here. I will be able to spend my final year getting USCE rotations in the US. I don’t know how hard it is to get those rotation spots. All of this, plus the fact that I’ve taken off a few years here and there means I’ll be older – 31 – when I start my residency. However, I won’t have much debt (~50k) because of the low tuition (1-2k per year) and the fact that you can work on the side. That’s about 3-4 years above the average age in the US, I guess.
All in all, I think it is a workable path, but it is definitely challenging and more difficult than just going for the right GPA in college and getting in (couldashouldawoulda). I’ll have to do as well as possible on the boards and apply broadly with little discretion and probably forsake the most competitive specialties. If I play my cards right during my final year of rotations I might be able to score a specific residency through a direct contact.
So EU schools are an option because some will allow you to spend 1 year doing rotations in the US if you organize them yourself.
Sometimes I think I could have improved my 3.2 GPA from UChicago and my 3 publications and actually gotten in somewhere in the US, but it’s a moot point: My girlfriend was living in Berlin so that really sealed it. What I wanted to know is whether one can have a decent shot coming from Europe and it sounds from ya’ll like it’s reasonably possible.
If it was a really, really hard path I’d consider shifting course and applying in the US. But like eviscerator said: “Hard work, networking, confidence and passion fill the holes in any medical program.” I hope I’ve got what it takes.
Still, thanks for the comments. The Caveat to all this is that if you do have the ability to get into a US med school (I don’t know that I do) and go to Europe you’re probably giving up the ability to choose your top 1-10 residency picks.
Ben – I think you made a great decision. German medical schools are among the best in the world, and certainly on par with the top US schools. Just keep up with all the English medical vocab, which you’ll need for the USMLE.
You can certainly any residency you want if you do well. My dermatologist at UChicago hospital is from Greece and she went to medical school in Athens. Having gone to medical school in Europe will broaden your horizons and will make you an interesting candidate. Plus you will get an excellent education for a minuscule tuition – sound good to me.
No one is talking about the living condition in caribbean..
is it that nice? is it tough?
I am actually an international student who goes to school in U.S..
with GPA 3.85 accum, GPA 3.88 science. and…MCAT 27..lol
I will be applying both Caribbean and DO.
I saw a post saying how AUC has the best quality living among caribbeans.
Is that true? anyone from SGU? or Saba,ross?
And i heard many people who went to caribbean med schools had to wait another year or two to get into a residency…is it typical with SGU, AUC, Ross, or Saba? or is it only the case if a person goes to other caribbean schools other than those listed.
I guess my biggest concern is the weather condition in caribbean.!
Thanks
I would like to clarify a slight misstatement of Dr. Freedman’s in her otherwise excellent article. She wrote, “In the US, Caribbean schools must be accredited by The National Committee on Foreign Medical Education and Accreditation of the US Department of Education and by some individual states.”
Actually the National Committee on Foreign Medical Education and Accreditation (NCFMEA) does not accredit Caribbean or any other type of off-shore medical schools. But rather, (from their website):
“The NCFMEA only reviews the standards that a foreign country uses to accredit its medical schools. The request by a foreign country for review by the NCFMEA is voluntary.”
While she is correct that NCFMEA provides a comparison of accreditation standards, the significance of NCFMEA approval is explained in their FAQ section:
“Why is this type of comparability determination important?
It’s important to American students who want to attend a foreign medical school and wish to receive loans under the Federal Family Educational Loan (FFEL) to help them with educational expenses. If the NCFMEA determines that a foreign country’s accreditation standards for medical schools are comparable, then any accredited medical school in that country is eligible to apply to the U.S. Department of Education to participate in the FFEL Program.”
What Dr. Freedman has most likely done is confuse NCFMEA with ECFMG: the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates. An ECFMG listing through its International Medical Education Directory – Foundation for Advancement of International Medical Education and Research (IMED-FAIMER) is the minimum standard of approval or accreditation required by the US Department of Education for students and graduates of medical schools outside the US or Canada. IMED-FAIMER listing endows students or graduates with eligibility to take the USMLEs and gain ECFMG Certification.
This may seem an insignificant distinction. But I think worth noting for those students who may not gain admission to a US medical school.
-Side note to the Quality of Medical Education paragraph: this van Zanten and Boulet study was completed in 2007 hence giving an incomplete impression of Step 1 results to the present day. In particular results from nations with multiple medical schools (Dominica, St. Kitts & Nevis, Antigua & Barbuda…etc) will not accurately reflect each individual medical school nor the quality of their educational system. I suggest contacting the individual schools or ECFMG for more specific information.
Tipton Carlson
Dear Mr. Carlson,
Thank you very much for the clarification regarding the NCFMEA. This was originally brought to my attention by Marta van Zanten and the article was modified prior to your comment submission. The article is now accurate.
Jessica Freedman, MD
Hey DS,
you asked about the living conditions on some of the Caribbean islands where those medical schools are located. I have heard too that AUC (St. Maarten) is a very developed island (it’s a major tourism hub and has the second busiest airport in the Caribbean). Living conditions on St. Maarten are comparable to the US and Europe. The island is half Dutch, half French, and good food is abundantly available. Other islands are a lot simpler (Grenada, Saba, Dominica) but it might be a great experience to live in an environment different from that in the US – also living is cheaper there.
I don’t know about that one year before residency, and I think it should only affect those that did not match, which is very few from AUC and SGU.
With your other concern about the climate, I don’t think you have anything to worry about. I have been to the Caribbean and the weather is very pleasant. Temperatures throughout the year only fluctuate very little (from about 70 to 85 degrees). Summer temperatures are actually cooler than in Florida. Hurricanes sometimes strike the area though, as the Caribbean is in a tropical climate zone. This might be something an international student might have to get used to. I don’t know what country you’re from, but if you are from a country like Sweden, Germany, or Russia and go to school in the northern US, it might take you a while to get used to the climate
well, i am actually considering going to ROSS Medical School, i just need the proper guidance into getting there.
Don’t limit yourself to just one school though and look into others as well. Ross has huge classes and even needs to weed out a lot of people in the first semester.
Having attended/graduated from ross medical school and now working/teaching as an ED attending MD in the NE (not NY), this medical school does not weed out students on purpose. The attrition rate is due to lower admission criteria ( GPA 3.2-3.6, MCAT- mid to high 20s), which is meant to equalize the quality of Ross graduating MDs vs. the allopathic MDs. Immaturity, family, financial, etc. are other reasons. Purposely ‘weeding out’ people=less money for the school in the long run=bad for business. And no, I do not work for the school.
Miles, i appreciate your information. Thanks alot.
Last question.
is it right to say:
1.) in terms of primary care: both D.O. and Caribbean M.D. should not have hard time getting into a residency?
2.) if not going for primary care: both D.O. and Caribbean M.D. will have less chance getting into a residency compared to US MD.(this one is rather logical and obvious)
3.) If not going for primary care: D.O. has slightly better chance, because they are in US. and they have their own residency programs?
From what i have read, 0.1~0.5% of caribbean MD goes to non primary care residency.
Thanks again miles.
oh by the way: right now i am not sure what i want to practice and I think it will change anyway once i get to the medical school somewhere someday.
Kevin (& David)- I too have two friends who were just accepted into Ross University with extremely low MCAT scores, or shall I say considered unacceptable to the US ( they were 18 & 20 to be precise). I also have a cousin who was accepted without taking an MCAT at all. To me the numbers just speak for them self, no explanation necessary.
Wow Cory, you seem to know a lot of underachieving people/relatives, who all happened to go to Ross. If they really that “unacceptable” then they won’t stay in med school very long.
DS – you’re welcome. I would recommend doing some more research about different schools on your own and then decide which path to go. DO NOT listen to people in this forum (including me). Most people ranting in here have no idea what they are talking about. As I said, don’t trust me on this, but here is what I am pretty certain about:
1. Primary care residencies are the easiest to obtain (especially family practice) and the average med student shouldn’t have a problem securing one.
2. DOs and FMGs generally have a smaller chance getting a particular residency when they are competing with a US MD with the same qualifications. This slight disadvantage, however, can be compensated with board scores, LORs, etc…
3. I wouldn’t say that DOs or Caribbean MDs have a better chance matching into allopathic residencies, but DOs have the option of osteopathic residencies as well. However, spaces in DO residencies are limited as well, and new DO schools seem to open every year –> higher competition
4. I have no idea from where you are getting the 0.1-0.5% non-primary care statistics. Where exactly did you get that kind of false information? The real number is more like 50%.
Do you want to go into primary care? If current trends continue there won’t be nearly enough primary care physicians in the US, and there already is a shortage.
Also, you will need to make sure that your home country recognizes the school and the degree (not every country recognized the DO degree) in case you will return home in the future. Have you considered going to med school in your home country at all? This might be a lot cheaper, especially since you cannot get financial aid as an international student.
Hope this helps.
Wow thanks Miles..
well about the information on the non-primary care residency,
I got it from http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=616175
“relaxedMD” said it
Dermatology: Nearly Impossible?
0 (zero) of 1664 matched US IMGs entered Dermatology in the US
4 of 3272 matched FMGs entered Dermatology in the US
Assuming that no one is admitted to Derm residency outside of the match, that means there are zero 2008 matched US IMGs in Derm.
Orthopaedic Surgery: Nearly Impossible?
6 of 1664 matched US IMGs entered Ortho Surg in the US
13 of 3272 matched FMGs entered Ortho Surg in the US
Assuming that no one is admitted to Ortho Surg residency outside of the match, that means only 0.36% of 2008 matched US IMGs entered Ortho Surg.
ENT: Nearly Impossible?
0 of 1664 matched US IMGs entered ENT in the US
5 of 3272 matched FMGs entered ENT in the US
Assuming that no one is admitted to ENT residency outside of the match, that means there are zero 2008 matched US IMGs in ENT.
Diagnostic Radiology: Rare yet Possible!
30 of 1664 matched US IMGs entered Diag Rads in the US
44 of 3272 matched FMGs entered Diag Rads in the US
There were 22 unfilled spots in Diag Rads in 2008. Assuming that no one is admitted to Diag Rads residency outside of the match, this simply means only 1.8% of 2008 matched US IMGs entered Diagnostic Rads.
Anesthesiology: Rare yet Possible!
56 of 1664 matched US IMGs entered Anesthesiology in the US
60 of 3272 matched FMGs entered Anesthesiology in the US
There were 36 unfilled spots in Anesthesiology in 2008. Assuming that no one is admitted to Anesthesiology residency outside of the match, this simply means only 3.4% of 2008 matched US IMGs entered Anesthesiology in the US.
The numbers are just as I guessed earlier, extremely low. Remember that those are the proportion of matched candidates from the US IMG pool. The actual number of people that took their chances in the NRMP Match in 2008 is nearly twice that (Active Match Applicants 2,969), making one’s chances even lower. Put it in perspective with Anesth: 56 of 2969 applicants were successful in acquiring Anesthesiology residency through the match. Your chances are 1.9%.
Unless you are among the top 5 in your carib class, and can achieve 97-99 on step 1 and step 2, please be realistic with your chances of achieving competitive residencies from the caribbean schools, including the BIG 4. It is a tough journey.
You are actually right on the option of going back to my home country.
It will be cheaper.Yet…I have to serve in the army for 2 years.. and If i go back i have to catch up with my native langauge. I have been in U.S. since 8th grade..I would rather wait a year to retake the MCAT..instead of spending about 3 years in my country trying to go to med school. But I dont think I will improve much on my MCAT, so i am considering D.O. and Caribbean.
I appreciate the thought though…
by the way….are you a med student?a graduate???
Cory, kevin, other DO supporters:
That is so interesting. I too know 3 friends who got into DO schools with MCATs in the 18s-22s. I also know relatives who went to PCOM/NYCOM even without MCATS. I think some of there were under probation too. I agree with you, these numbers speak for themselves.
I have two questions if someone can please help me
1) Does anyone know a website where it list which Caribbean schools are accredited by the US?
2) for the Caribbean schools that do not require the MCAT (i.e. AUA and Saba), can they still be US accredited?
thank you
Well, a lot are accredited, but only four are FULLY accredited, which makes their graduates eligible to practice in all 50 states and Canada (those are AUC, SGU, Ross, and Saba). I would not recommend looking into any other offshore schools but those four. AUC and SGU are probably the best on the list, and also have higher admission standards.
Here my resume, I was wondering if I have a chance of getting into 1 of the big 4 caribbean schools:
1) gpa 3.14 overall (science is 3.0)
2) MCAT in the mid-teens :-/
3) BA in Math
4) Over 300 volunteering hours at a hostpial
5) Im current doing research
6) I went to a big name college (U of Mich)
Mike N., I’d say that you will need to retake your MCAT – the average scores for AUC and SGU are between 25 and 26. Your GPA is not that high, but you did attend an excellent and challenging college, and you might not have focused as much on the natural sciences while finishing your Math major. Keep doing your research job, take some more time to study for the MCAT, and then take it again when you feel ready. If you get a score of above 20, you can give it a shot. Keep in mind that Caribbean schools give you the option to apply for either the fall, winter, or summer semester. Starting in the winter (Jan) or summer (May) might be a bit easier to get in I think. I think it would be possible for you to apply for the winter semester (starting in January) if you get your scores up until then.
Sorry one last quesiton. Saba does not require the MCAT, just recommends it. When I apply there, won’t it best if i dont submit my MCAT score?
I am surprised to hear that Saba does not require the MCAT. Well, if you really do not want to take it again, and therefore not apply to any of the other three, go ahead and apply to Saba. And no, you should not submit your MCAT It is so low that it would definitely hurt you.
Hi everyone,
I’m a bio-chem major entering my senior at Manchester College (IN). I spent a month in Nicaragua on a medical practicum last year assisting a team of doctors. On the trip I found that I am most passionate about practicing outside of the United States, in places like Nicaragua, where I feel they have the greatest need for doctors. However, I’m afraid that in doing so I would make it impossible to pay for med-school debt. Do you have any advice??
Only last year did I apply to over 30 allopathic anesthesia residencies, received over 20 invites, and attended 11. There were some well known (OHSU, Univ. of Washington, Mayo Clinic, Washington University), and some not so well known programs in that bunch. I am a DO and I went through the allopathic match for an anesthesia residency position. As we all know, anesthesia is becoming one of the more popular specialties (not at the level of derm, optho, etc.) but it was not uncommon for me to hear that programs had over 700 applications for their spots. The one common theme…three of the more influential programs that I applied to stated that there was no way they would take FMG over a DO or MD. This was straight from program directors mouths. They said they wouldn’t even interview the vast majority of them regardless of their board scores. Yes, it depends on the specialty but I only met one or two FMG’s on the interview trail last year but quite a few more DO’s. I am not bashing FMG’s, but there is no way I would go through Ross or any of the other programs unless I was doing a primary care residency….it’s as simple as that. That’s not to say there aren’t FMG’s that get into optho, or derm (as I am sure some of you will immediately point out), but if going purely by the numbers…DO or MD all the way.
Craig,
I am sure there are programs that hold the same bias against DOs as there are programs that hold biases against FMGs. Presumably the fact that you are an osteopath makes you biased against medical doctors educated outside the US. I have never heard that kind of prejudice against FMGs from MDs as I keep hearing from DOs. What in the world is the deal with that? Also, what I don’t get about you DO people is that if the tenants of osteopathic medicine is supposed to focus on PRIMARY CARE, then why do all DOs here on this board keep talking about the so-called “competitive” residencies. You all seem to ignore the fact that osteopathic schools are the schools that are supposed to provide the country with family doctors.
Which residency program have you decided to attend by the way?
Does anyone know of Antigua Medical School?????…its linked with Manipal medical school in India. Please let me know what you think of it.
I am doing anesthesiology. I was going to do internal medicine but changed my mind in third year. To think that everyone that goes to a DO school will do primary care is short-sited. How many people go into medical school knowing what they want to do in life? All of us right? The question is is how many of us change during the course of our medical education. A lot of us. MD or DO I would have ended up anesthesia. DO programs work to get people into the primary care field a lot and they succeed a lot, but not all the time. Not everyone that goes to a DO program wants to be a primary care physician at all. I have nothing against FMG’s at all. I know a couple that are great people, probably will be great doctors. I am sharing what I was told point-blank by several program directors in anesthesia only. I am sure at those same institutions that there are program directors in other fields that are anti-DO but I didn’t get that feeling. Just letting you know what was told to me directly on my interview trail for a fairly competative specialty.
Well, let me explain myself. I’m only going to be a junior in college, but I go to a state school with many pre-meds. My own personal bias against DO students is rooted in my own experiences with them. None of those I know, who is going to attend a DO school is actually interested in either osteopathy nor primary care. Especially that one arrogant yet not so bright slacker, who was pretty much the most anti-intellectual person I have met in college. He is going to attend a DO school, and it’s scary that he will be a practicing doctor one day. Sorry, but I can’t help my own prejudice.
I am a double major in Biochemical Engineering and Math, and have been very hard-working. However, I already know that I won’t make the cut to go to a US allopathic school (I only have a 3.2 GPA at the moment), but I won’t go to a DO school, which to me is no more than a second option, just like an offshore school. It will be hard to find anyone with stellar grades and scores, who went the osteopathy route. I’d rather go to the Caribbean where I can become a real medical doctor without that whole voodoo BS taught by DO schools.
Furthermore, have you ever considered the idea that completing part of one’s medical education abroad can actually be to one’s personal advantage, and shows that you are flexible and willing to adapt to a different lifestyle and environment. I think those are pretty important personal qualities for a future physician as well.
I am sorry…voodoo??? Junior in college??? The conversation should end here. I watched an MD kill a person once….do I think all MD’s are idiots? Hell no, not a chance. I rotated with an MD student once that couldn’t tell you a damn thing about medicine….do I think all MD’s are idiots? Hell no, not a chance. That’s just ignorance. How many people study in the carribean because they wanted to instead of going to the nice cushy MD/DO program in the states? Not to damn many I am sure of it. Yes, DO students have lower average MCAT’s and GPA’s than tradition MD students ON AVERAGE. Take a look out there though. How many DO’s do you see in radiology, ortho, ENT, anesthesia, and all the primary care spots…..MANY. I have at least one (and more than one in most cases) classmate that did these this year, and good programs to. Once your in a DO/MD program no one gives a crap except a handfull of programs and some of the more competative specialties. Do you know how I/we got over that….we rocked the USMLE. The same test that all MD medical students take a lot of us DO’s take…and we do well, much better than the average. That’s not bragging, that’s making a statement. I haven’t met a single attending yet that gives me crap about being a DO. What I have heard is rants against FMG’s and how they are the only ones that staff certain jobs because no one else will fill them. Also, don’t tell me that a person that trains oversees is a better “person”. I mean, come on, that’s weak sauce. First, they spend just as much, if not more, time studying so how much “out” time do they get? They have to study because their pass rate for the USMLE is so low…that’s a fact. Do you think that makes them a better doctor? Maybe in some way but every FMG I have talked to has NEVER mentioned that as being a growing point for them. The only time I can see them saying that living oversees has made them a better person some what is when they are kissing butt to get into a FM residency. Be carefull with the voodoo statement also. I don’t personally care because I am sure your information comes from a select few on SDN and no experience as you are a junior in college but there are some people on this forum that will take offense to it. I am extremely happy with my education. I have worked with/rotated with some of the smartest students at MD programs across the country and know I can stand toe-to-toe with them. Good luck in your quest to become a doctor, the only way you will know the difficulties of being an FMG is when you try to get that family medicine residency in Arkansas and it doesn’t happen. Do you read the message boards? Do you think there is a reason that you see the statement…”I am an FMG trying to get into X, is there any chance?” over and over again. It’s because it’s tough, not trying to be mean, just stating the facts.
Man up Craig, don’t be so angry and chill out for a second. Don’t tell me not tp generalize, because 1) I am not and 2) you are generalizing all the time and not just “telling the facts.” The FMGs you are talking about (the one’s that kiss butt to get into FM) are definitely a large portion of all foreign-trained physicians, probably predominantly from non-English speaking countries, and who are utterly unprepared for the US boards and just passed them on the third try. My brother who is going to be a third year medical student at U of Illinois saw those FMGs, predominantly from Asian and African countries taking the USMLE prep course that he took. Most of them were absolutely incompetent in mastering the material, and he said it’s pretty safe to assume that the majority of them will not even pass.
However, this article that we are discussing talks about Caribbean medical schools, modeled after the US system, with students who have USMLE pass rates and scores comparable to their US peers. The same holds true for many other FMGs from top medical schools (Europe, Australia, etc.) You will see FMGs from Europe or comparable places in all kinds of specialties. Also, you tend to mention US MDs and DOs in one category. Please quit doing this, because they are not the same. Some people in this forum might take offense to this as well.
DO’s and MD’s are different, very different, but there is no way I would go to a carribean medical school. Good luck man, your going to need it to get back on shore once you head out across the sea. You have no clue as a Junior in college, you’ll find out shortly.
This Craig guy sounds like a “Kevin incarnate,” who himself has mysteriously disappeared. But seriously man, all you have contributed here is anything negative you could possibly mention and be as discouraging as you can be. I have read all of your posts, and it’s like you are still defending your degree. What are you doing in here anyway, when you have no experience with Caribbean schools? Have you spoken to any students or graduates of those schools at all? I also would like to know which residency program people you spoke with, who told you that they would not even interview FMGs regardless of their scores. I would like to call the departments myself and find out.
I find it really sickening how much hostility there is between some of the people in here. It’s very unprofessional, and this is not the attitude any potential future physician should have.
No hostility, just providing my insight into what I was told in person at several programs in anesthesia only. Yes, I have several friends that graduated from these programs (in all stages of residency training). I don’t know who this Kevin is that you speak of. No, I will not tell you the programs and I don’t really see any need to explain why. If you think I am lying, so be it. If you called the program director do you think he/she would say that they said those things really? Come on. Did I got to a carribean medical school…no. My experience comes from what programs have told me and what my FMG friends have told me…that’s it. Just relating personal experience is all. Would be like me listening to a Junior in college about my DO program…wouldn’t make much sense. I don’t have an attitude against FMG’s by the way, again I have friends who are FMG’s. Doesn’t change the fact that them getting into a residency is tough. Don’t listen to what I say, I don’t care one bit. You should be looking into this yourself. As I said before, just passing along information that was given to me at my interviews. Good luck with the future.
Oh, and I am not defending my degree. I have no reservations about my program, medical eduation, degree, and future area of expertise. I am confident in my skills as a physician and at the same time realize I have a lot to learn. I will never regret being a DO.
BEN,
how did you get the Physikum (the first two years of German Med School) in one year?
I would like to know. Is it at all possible?
Thanks for the info
Again, I assume that your FMG friends are probably from non-western medical schools. Those would actually be called IMG (international med…), since they are not US citizens. I wish the US would produce more doctors so there would be no need to fill the slots with doctors from Asia and other places. Trust me, I have personally seen many really bad doctors from those places, and have no idea how they got a US residency. However, there is nothing wrong with Americans going abroad to receive their medical education at a good foreign school, as well as to offer competitive residency slots to good foreign physicians from Europe, Australia etc.
Vincent,
So where are these FMG’s from you mentioned that are incompetent? I have personally seen incompetent doctors too and they graduated from medical schools here in the US. I’ve encountered several from Asia that were pretty good, although I have seen bad ones as well.
I can’t help but sense bigotry from your statement. Stereotyping a group of doctors based on their place of origin is just repulsive, a reflection of what is going on behind the scenes in the medical community when it comes place of origin, race, medical school etc..
This Kevin guy is special – my son attends AUC and loves it. He is getting a very high quality education from wonderful faculty and his classmates are motivated folks who WILL be MD’s in the USA.
I think that the issue is more about the person than the degree and their motivation to become a good physician – but Kevin is not making the case – someone has hurt his feelings and I don’t believe that he is being fair or truthful. Lets hope Kevin is never tasked to resolve the rift between US educated MD’s and DO’s as I feel that it will go on infinitum with his participation.
GO AUC!!!!!!!!!!
Well, I think Kevin’s and some others’ resentment and negativity stems from their constant attempts to establish a hierarchy, in which they want to place foreign-educated physicians below docs from US medical and osteopathy schools. To me this seems like trying to compensate for a subconscious inferiority complex they have because of their DO degree, a degree which is legit and perfectly fine, but makes them different from the vast majority of other doctors. Have you noticed that all of the negative statements in this forum have come from DO-proponents (Kevin, Craig, etc.). Why don’t they just leave FMGs alone instead of talking them down.
The last comment was absolutely right and echos exactly what I think – it’s the individual and not the medical school that gets one a residency and a successful career. There really is no need to further discuss this point of the story. I think it is fairly accurate to say that the education at the good Carib schools (AUC, SGU) is mostly on par with US schools, and the feedback from student in those schools seems to be overwhelmingly positive. Therefore, if you want real information about these schools, then talk to students, who actually attend them/graduated from them and take what’s claimed by people trying to discredit them with a grain of salt.
I don’t know a lot about caribean medical schools, but since there is now more US medical schools in the past several years and they didn’t really increase resident number I’d be wondering if in the next few years there was a decrease in people in the Caribbean and DO schools matching. I would not hesitate to tell my friends who did not get into an MD school in the US before to try these options, but I’ve heard that starting this passed years it would be harder to match.
I meant this past years. I was typing and not paying attention. I’m just wondering if anyone thought about looking at what may happen in the future. This year was a harder match due to less spots per medical student and I’d be wondering how it would hit these Caribbean schools in the next couple years.
It will hit the Caribbean students and other FMGs, who did not do so well (low board scores etc.). The ones that did ok should be fine. It really makes no sense though to increase the number of medical school graduates while not increasing the number of residency positions – this results in the exact same number of doctors, and all it does is making it harder for students to match.
Steve, they have been saying that for years yet the number of residents fron foreign medical schools have not really decreased. If at all they have increased over the yearsm
And it goes without saying that FMGs who did not do so well in their USMLE’s would have a hard time getting into residency. It is hard as it is to get into a residency program if you have low scores even if you are US educated.
all of this depends on the specialty you choose to practice. those seeking to practice primary care may not have a problem getting into a residency program and subsequently finding a good practice opportunity. Specialists and surgeons on the other hand… forget about it.
“….forget about it” ?????? You have no idea what you are talking about Bridget, do you? The bottom line is that if there are more medical graduates, it will get harder for anyone to get a competitive residency, no matter if FMG or US grad.
Sorry Bridget, I did not see that you were replying to Philip’s post, who did mention that it will affect people with low credentials (both FMGs and AMGs). Considering that there are primary care positions that remain unfilled every year, you are correct that these graduates will probably still match in spite of their bad scores.
Hi, does anyone know something about American Global University??? I am planning to transfer, but I can’t find any info about it.
I attended a US school with a strong reputation and in our third and fourth years, we rotated through several hospitals. While the majority of our rotations were hosted by top tier medical centers, we seemed to spend a week or two of every major clerkship rotating through a community hospital where the work ethic and physician patient interactions were often disturbing. Some of the medicine being practiced was questionable at best. This is not a generalization about community hospitals – these were our shared observations about a few particular hospitals. Many of my classmates took these rotations less seriously, and the evaluations we received from these hospitals were not given the same amount of weight as evaluations received from one of the ivory towers. At these community hospitals, we often worked along side students from Caribbean schools. Unfortunately, these students completed the majority (if not all) of their required clerkships at these hospitals!!!… and furthermore, !!!. They were under the impression; however, that they were receiving the same clinical training as students from my school. These students spend a fortune on their educations, must travel far from home, and encounter difficulties matching at decent hospitals when they return to the states. Maybe the situation is improving, but before applying for Caribbean medical school admission, I would retake the MCAT, take some more science courses, work at a hospital for a little while and then reapply to US schools. Graduating from a US school will make your life so much easier a few years down the line and will possibly provide you with stronger role models and clinical experiences. If you’re going into medicine for reasons of intellectual and emotional fulfillment, then there is absolutely no rush to start your training. If you want to be a doctor to make some cash (for as long as that will last) then you should consider that matching into the more lucrative specialties is even challenging for graduates of the top US schools. I have nothing negative to say about any of the Caribbean schools, but be certain that you are going to receive the education they promise and consider re-applying to US schools if that is an option.
I appreciate your warning, and I absolutely believe you – yes, the majority of Caribbean schools don’t have the best hospitals for their clinical rotations, and do not provide an adequate education. There are SO many schools out there hurting the reputation of all offshore schools, even the good ones. A few Caribbean schools do provide a more or less equivalent education to US schools, particularly St. George’s and AUC. Both schools have affiliations with strong teaching hospitals. AUC’s Providence Hospital (Michigan) is listed in the Top 50 US Hospitals, and its new clinical site in NYC is also a teaching hospital of SUNY-Stony Brook med school. At Union Memorial, Maryland, their students rotate in a teaching hospital of Johns Hopkins and Univ. of Maryland. And SGU is affiliated to medical centers of the same caliber. So again, it really depends whether you’re talking about Caribbean schools in general or only the (two to three) good ones.
Thanks for raising an important point though. The key here is not to generalize, and understand that the quality differences among offshore schools are vast.
Oh, concerning Ursula’s question: I have never heard of American Global University, and I would recommend to be very careful. Why are you looking at that school? It’s probably not even worth looking into.
Philip,
If you have prior coursework you might be able to skip a year before the physikum if you’re very convincing and you happen to be able to put your schedule together just right. Definitely don’t count on it. I ended up finishing all my class work in one year, but I’m taking the physikum later anyway because I had no time to prepare for it.
Thanks Ben,
Have things changed in Germany regarding the language exams? Someone in the forum keeps saying that it has become stringent. Personally, his statements are outrageously exaggerated. And there’s a debate whether foreign nationals have to go through ZVS rather than applying directly to a university.
I have a choice of med school in Germany or the Caribbean. It’s six years in Germany plus a year or two of learning German versus four years in the Caribbean. The Caribbean though makes for the better choice if one is to consider practice in the US.
Philip,
They may have been saying this for years but there were significantly fewer openings to scramble into this year in specialties that typically aren’t difficult to scramble in or match in ie ob.gyn. I heard this past year was the first year some of these newer schools had a graduating class and that there will be several more in the next couple years. My medical school is increasing the size by 10 to help address the predicted doctor shortage. These kids will be graduating in 4 more years. Other schools are increasing sizes + more schools and the same number of residency spots makes me think that in the next couple of years I’d be increasingly skeptical of going to a foreign school. At least DO schools have their own residency programs so they would not have to worry about this problem.
Actually, DO residency positions won’t increase as well, and as new DO schools are opening up, there will be the same problem. I can’t believe this argument (more graduates = bad for FMGs) is being dug out again). Doesn’t anyone read some of the previous posts? This topic has been discussed to exhaustion, and the bottom line is that FMGs will be fine as long as they perform well on their boards, clinicals, etc. There is absolutely no reason to discuss this any further.
Ok, i am getting sick and tired of this med school application process, i just sent out 7 apps to seven different US med schools and 3 apps to AUC, ST.GEORGES AND ROSS, i immediately got an interview with all Caribbean schools but i am just getting responses from US med school to fill out another freaking set of secondary apps that will cost some more freaking cash (i wonder if this will be part of the tuition), so my interviews for te caribbean schools are next month, my GPA and MCAT is not as competitive for the US schools, so what do every one think i should do? go ahead with the Caribbean and say F the US schools? or try to take the MCAT that got me sick of life the first time i took and and spend some more thousands of dollars to re-take courses to improve my GPA?, FYI i am broke! and 25 years old. I am really not planning to spend all my life practice practising in the US, i want to practice in Africa but i need the US experience stuff. so i need your opinions immediately. emial me if possible, ngussie84@yahoo.com
I really enjoyed the article and the feedback everyone have contributed. Some of them were really touching because I believe that you must have a passion for what you do, reguarless of the pay check or MD status. Thanks to those of you that have given positive feedback. I say this beacuse I have been putting off taking the MCAT for sometime,based on what I have heard from inividuals that have taken the test. Its GPA this, MCAT score that. What about PASSION? I will love to be a Doctor/Physician its just taking me sometime to get there. I wish all you MD’s and DO’s all the best…….
Kevin
This might be outdated, but just wanted to respond to some of your points. A foreign MD, no matter where from, as long as they are licensed is “by law” equivalent to an AMG MD. Also, the excuse that DO students don’t report their USMLE scores is false. Once they take it, they don’t have a choice to report it or not, it is automatically counted towards the average that is reported. The fact is, SGU/AUC/Ross has better pass rates than DO schools in general period. This says a lot about the quality of students of DO schools vs MD schools, since the pass rate is so much lower, and no, its not because DO schools don’t teach towards the USMLE, because they do. and no, its not because DO students worry more about the COMLEX, because they don’t. Most DO students take the USMLE first, and then study an additional 2 wks or so to take the COMLEX.
As of right now (although it is very dynamic and can change from yr to yr), SGU matches at a higher rate than DO schools in general, according to SGU, on this email they sent to their students, (74.5 vs 69.9% for DO schools)
http://www.valuemd.com/st-georges-university-school-medicine/174204-interesting-email-dean-about-match-rates.html
Yes.. DO schools have their own residencies that is not factored in, and SGU (being a foreign school) is eligible for prematches, which is not factored into that 74.5% as well, so its kind of a wash.
In reality, most DO students try to obtain a MD residency, because it is well known DO residencies are below par.
I think many of the problems that people have with DO and FMG schools is not that you went there. There are many talented and smart people who went this route. And they are now excellent physicians. But on a whole the people I know that went to DO and Carribean schools went because they couldn’t get into allopathic medical schools.
Own up to it already…
Caution
In reply to your post, the hospitals that SGU rotates through are green book rotations. Meaning there are residents actually being trained there as well. If your post is correct, which I’m not questioning, it is also true that these residents are not getting good training.
CmonNow.
I will own up to it. As a mother to be, working full time, taking a full course load and managing an $1800 hundred a month mortgage. I didn’t have the time needed to study for the mcat, like some of my peers. Sure, I could walk away from my husband and all the responsibilities I have, drop 2 g’s on a prep course, screw my benefits paying job, and get that 30+ score I need to get into my one state MD school (I live in a state with one MD school and two DO schools) – Yeah right. Instead, I’ll go to my local DO school school with my 3.97 gpa, and my mediocre mcat score. Once I matriculate, I’ll quit my job thereby giving me an extra 40 hours to study – ace the usmle – and take that bittersweet residency from someone with your exact mentality.
I like this article. Recently i joined in Xavier University School of medicine, Bonaire. I consider this as one of the best Caribbean medical school in teaching and it is cost effective. i paid just 6k for the semester.
It’s unfortunate that the article focuses on the most commercialized foreign option for US citizens who want to become IMGs. Carribean schools, above all else, are moneymaking machines: They do not serve a community of patients, and their only focus is the bottom line. To that end, they often employ instructors from English-speaking third world countries, they are located on islands with very low real estate and labor cost, and yet their tuition, housing, food services cost is more like out of state US tuition.
An important fact that was omitted is that an IMG is always an IMG. The Carribean doesn’t enjoy a special licensure status, and its graduates have the same legal status in the US as the graduates of recognised medical school in Mongolia or Papua New Guinea. Which brings up an important issue: Why on earth would Americans consider the Carribean as their “best” foreign option? I won’t recommend a particular country. I found Cebu, Philippines to be a great place to study in English, and feel I’m getting my money’s worth from a school that’s recognised in all 50 US states, and charges less than $3000 per year. But for those who lack in premedical subjects, who haven’t done well in their undergraduate a 6 year program in China, India, Europe might be better suited. Latin America has some great medical programs too, if you speak Spanish. The English-language program at UAG, Mexico is just as overpriced as their carribean counterparts, and will take you 5 years to complete. But UNIBE in DR is a 4 year program that’s accepted in all US states except california.
My point is that there is a whole world out there. Make educated choices. If you really like a particular Carribean school and you feel it’s worth the high price tag – do it! But don’t be scared into attending one because you think that a graduate from a foreign school outside of the Carribean can’t pass the USMLE, or can’t match for Residency. We have doctors from all over the world practicing in the US. They all passed. They all matched. And most didn’t have to go broke on Gilligan’s Island to do it.
Just my 2 centavos.
interesting.
“Once I matriculate, I’ll quit my job thereby giving me an extra 40 hours to study – ace the usmle – and take that bittersweet residency from someone with your exact mentality.”
Good luck to you. But stop making excuses…you’ll get further that way.
Sam
A huge advantage of caribbean schools like SGU is that you do clinicals in the US in 3rd and 4th year. Other “true” foreign med schools will not. This is a HUGE advantage, as a lot of programs like you to have US clinical exposure. In addition, schools like SGU is based on a US curicullum and teaches towards the USMLE, whereas true foreign schools do not. These 2 advantages are enough to say that caribbean schools like SGU, Ross, AUC, are better options for foreign than true foreign schools if your primary purpose is to come back to the US. You are correct that caribbean schools do not enjoy special licensure status, but the transition to licensure is definately much more smoother from caribean schools who are 50 state recognized. Attending SGU, you do not have to prove equivalence to the medical boards in any of the 50 states. It has been already established, whereas true foreign medical schools you do, and its just a hassle, and not a guarantee. Although phillipine medical schools are great, going there, and ultimately trying to come back to the US will cause a lot of headaches compared to an established caribbean schools. In regards to profs at SGU, many of them are visiting professors from Canada, US and UK schools. For ex: Cardio section in path was taught by a practicing physician in the US, General pathology section was taught by a practicing pathologist in Canada. A portion of behavioral science was taught by practicing psychiatrist from Canada… the list goes on and on. Many phillipine med schools require you to finish your full 4 yrs there, before allowing you to take the USMLE. So you take step 1, step 2 after you graduate. HUGE disadvantage. To top it off, phillipine med school has NO US affiliations for rotations. Sam.. do you research before posting stupid lies.
Jay
Xavier is not considered one of the good caribbean schools this article speaks of. You might pay just $6k per semester, but you will pay for it, by having a really hard time getting a good residency, in addition, to the huge amount of hassles you will have in obtaining licensure once you have finished residency. It is better to attend schools that are 50 state approved (SGU, AUC, Ross, and maybe SABA (case by case in some states))
“Once I matriculate, I’ll quit my job thereby giving me an extra 40 hours to study – ace the usmle – and take that bittersweet residency from someone with your exact mentality.”
Not with that attitude you won’t. Why didn’t you just take longer to study for the MCAT? Nobody wants to hear your excuses why you’re at a DO school, at least you know you are there as a 2nd option. Everybody has their own personal problems, nobody cares that you make it sound like yours is worse than everybody else’s. Makes you come out as ass.
Hey.
Caribbean Medical school is awesome! The education quality is the same. If you’re going to waste the best years of your life in the library, you might as well enjoy the scenery on the walk there! lol
Good Luck
I went to UNE (Noreste) in Mexico in the early eighties. There is a LOT of anti Americanism down there, you have no civil rights no landlord tenant rights and most important no academic rights. Groucho got it right that he wouldn’t “join any club that would have ME as a member!” In those years they switched from the ECFMG to the dreaded two-day FMGEMS. MANY could not pass with the 90-95% failure rate of this “separate and unequal” exam. I lost three years of my life with that alone and THEN had to pay to be a fifth pathway slave in NY for a year (better than two years of Internado and social service in Tampico) We would take rotations ANYWHERE to get out of that Hole in my case inner city Detroit and Cleveland. Even if you get a residency (and all the double standard politics that go with it) you will end up doing primary care like me often in an out of the way place. I cannot imagine being a male nurse would be as painful as this…at least they are wanted and needed!
An excellent article. However, the auther focused only on off shore medical schools following the American system. This gives the false impression that this is the only type of medical school in the Caribbean. The University of the West Indies is an excellent university with three medical schools. This school is patterned after the British system and in fact began as a campus of the University of London. The author has completely ignored this institution which is internationally recognized. While the emphasis was placed on American type schools a more balanced approach should be considered. Apart from this omission, the article was interesting and infromative.
I have heard that students who study at carribean schools have a tough time passing the USMLE step exams. A cousin of my friend went to Ross and passed is Step 1 but has taken the step 2 twice and failed and is now looking to take it his third time. Is this due to the quality of educaiton and clinical rotation quality or just the student himself? please let me know thank you for your time
man, all you DO vs. MD guys are hilarious. I think evidence of those out practicing medicine (whether they be DO or MD) speaks enough for itself: IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT TWO LETTERS FOLLOW YOUR NAME.
Pranav
Med school in general is mostly self studying/self motivation. Your cousin had trouble passing the boards not because of Ross’s fault, but mostly a fault of his own. If a particular US school’s average for step 1 was say.. 230, and you took all that student and have them study at SGU (can’t really comment on Ross since I don’t go there), i’m pretty sure that the average will still be 230. It’s more to do with the student than the school.
it seems everyone is talking about top 4 caribbean medical schools.I am attending caribbean school other than these top 4.
(AUC,SGU,ROSS,SABA).I am in top 3 students in my school and had very competitive scores in USMLE Step 1.I was wondering if
I would be competitive enough for the residency positions in US/Canada.
Go out to the street and ask every individual that walks by you: “if you had the option, who would you rather seek for medical treatment? An MD, a DO, or someone who graduated from a medical school in the Caribbean?”…I seriously doubt anyone would respond with the latter two. The bottom line is, and I can say this comfortably after attending a highly competitive pre-med school (JHU), there is a group of people who apply to MD schools, a group who apply to DO schools, and a group who apply to MD schools outside of the U.S; these aforementioned groups correlate to competitive, so-so, and poor MCAT scores, GPA, clinical experience, research (among other things), respectively.
If there wasn’t any importance regarding the two letters that follow your name or the medical school that you applied to then we would all be meshed together into one, huge, clinical training school which is frankly ridiculous.
Let’s hope the “every individual on the street” don’t ever require treatment from “soontobeMD”. If US medical schools are churning out the obnoxious, arrogant likes of that poster, I think the DO or FMS options are looking pretty attractive. At least I can bet that the majority of students in those two options actually want to be caring, compassionate physicians for the right reasons.
Please.. The last time I checked the English language and general human philosophy there was a large discrepancy between being a well-educated compassionate physician and an individual who refuses to have his/her hard work belittled by those who mustered no effort and are claiming to be equally qualified.
In other words I can be both and I think many others would agree.
I didn’t read through the million comments already posted so I apologize if this has already been stated. Aside from the increased difficulty in getting a desired residency, I think the stigma of having a Car. medical school stamp for the rest of your life is something that a lot of people (including myself) consider. I have had extensive health care due to asthma and sports related injuries and one of the first things I look for every time I get a new doctor is the medical school they attended. Obviously reading that someone went to SGU as opposed to someone who went to UCSD medical school will automatically make the later more desirable. Aside from this, I’m sure the medical education is the same just as a General Biology course at Cal State Bakersfield covers the same curriculum with the same intensity as a General Biology course at Berkeley.
Wow so many opinions. Now I get mixed feelings about the whole MD vs DO vs Carib. schools. So for a person with not low stats like me, what is your suggestion? This year is my second time applying to US medical schools. I’m still in the reviewing status for most of the US (MD & DO) med. schools. I also tried two Carib. med schools (Ross & AUC). I got turned down by Ross. However, they recommended me to MERP. Anyone ever heard of this program? I was considering this option but it’s too expensive and that i couldn’t afford the tuition cost. I’m still waiting for AUC. Any suggestions on what I should do. I want to be a doctor more than anything. It’s just that I didn’t test well on the MCAT and my undergrad GPA wasn’t that high. I just finished my MPH with a pretty decent GPA. I don’t know if this would help. Please please help me…The application process is very lengthy and expensive.
Thanks in advance!
I’m sorry for a typo in the previous post.. actually “…for a person with low stats like me”
St. George’s is the worst medical school in the Caribbean. It is the most expensive and living on the island really sucks, with the high cost of living and poor living standards. The school only cares about how much money it can make since it is a business enterprise, and dosen’t care about the medical students once they are admitted. The classes are over crowded with about 370-400 students admitted each term, and less that 50% of students secure residency. Even though, SGU will deny this claim. Each academic year at SGU, about 600 students graduate with an attrition rate of 10-15%. Amongst the students that graduate, less than 50% students secure residency in the first attempt. Check the school website for yearly residency matches and see for yourself if you are not convinced. If you are not an IEA student (the elite group of students at SGU), your chances of gaining a residency is very slim. Most students that graduate from SGU disappear from the radar screen because they fail to obtain a successful residency after graduation and end up doing a MBA, or changing careers with $250,000 in student loans to pay back and no license to practice medicine in the US or Canada.
SGU has a great marketing campaign, with a flashy website, and nice campus buildings. Once you get out of this “SGU bubble life”, the rest of the country is a dumpster, and the locals make a killing on off-campus housing, local business making a killing by selling everything from food to entertainment at high prices. Most professors are foreign educated and speak English with a thick accent. When you take upper level courses like Path or Pharm, you are taught by foreign medical graduates that end up at SGU with the hope of getting a shot at a US residency program.
The so called IEA students and other smart students seldom attend lectures and ace all the exams by self studying or studying in groups. SGU is definitely NOT WORTH the $250,00+ investment, unless your parents are filthy rich. Otherwise, you will have to pay a hefty $250,000+ loan for the rest of your life.
My take on International medical schools is this; You can go to any medical school worldwide as long as it is approved by the WHO and the school meets US accreditation standards. California is one of the most difficult states to obtain residency. Check the following link and see if your school is mentioned.
http://www.medbd.ca.gov/applicant/schools_recognized.html#g
You can go to any one of these medical schools, get your degree, then take Kaplan USMLE prep, and ACE Step 1 Step 2 and CK and you will be guaranteed a competitive residency in the US or Canada.
If you want to get the best bang for your buck, try some of the medical schools in India, Poland, China, or the Philippines. My friend went to a medical school in India and paid only $30,000 for the entire program, passed the USMLE board exams with high marks, and now is doing a Anesthesiology residency in CUNY downstate NY.
So for those who want to become a doctor, but don’t have rich parents, these schools in India, Poland, China, and the Philippines make an excellent choice. US residency program directors don’t give a rats about where you went to medical school. Pass your board exams with high marks, and you will get into a residency. In fact, the quality of medical education in countries like India are far superior to any Caribbean medical school. Some of the Best Doctors and Surgeons in America are foreign medical graduates from Indian medical schools. Think long and hard before you make a $250,000 mistake with this high priced medical school.
Thanks! What about the advantage of clinical rotations in the US that most of carib. med schools offer? To be honest, I’m scared of the location because caribbean islands are subject to earthquake and hurricane. The recent disaster earthquake was in Haiti. But I really want to look into other alternative options to become a doctor and can practice in the US. How about some of the med schools in Australia? Thanks again.
The problem with these schools is they prey on the hopes and desires of desparate applicants. You hear of success stories, of those that successfully matched, but they don’t tell you about the more than 50% that don’t match anywhere. The fact that the top school has an 84% step 1 pass rate (and who knows what percentage of students that start there end up even making it to the step 1… if it is as high as 75%, then the pass rate is actually only 63% of those that start will pass first try) and that some are below 20% is astonishing, when the worse US schools are probably in the upper 80%. And while the caribbean schools do get clinical training in the US, they are all at community hospitals because large academic hospitals all have US medical schools and refuse these students. And the training difference is astonishing between the two places. I would feel much less prepared for residency if I only rotated at community hospitals. I am a US Senior and applying for General Surgery at only academic places, have not seen a single Caribbean student on an interview yet, and its not cause I didn’t look, it is because PD’s state: We got 1200 applicants, 200 from US seniors, and of those, invited 75… you get passed over for academic residencies 99 times out of 100. Ask most caribbean students how many places they applied to for residency: Most do 60+ for 10 interviews. I did 15 places for 13 interviews (interestingly enough, it was 2 community places that didn’t offer me interviews). So, yes, for those highly motivated, lucky few, you can go into neurosurgery from one of these schools… it hasn’t happened in a few years… and you can get a US residency in something (like was stated, something like 40-50% of those who graduate, which might be something like 50% or so who start, so really 20-25% of those who start at these schools will get a residency), but they are in no way ideal.
well. You need to know one thing. If you do goto caribbean medical school. Be sure following
No gaps during school
dont screw around: need to be top 25% of class rank ( or better)
No fails in any classes
No failures in ANY steps with min over 210 (for even good chance)1sst try.
Know your self. dont be a fool trying to apply to Surg if with low grade etc.( this is a key)
MOST important: DO NOT listen again DO NOT repeat any class, or failures, including STEPS!.
MAKE SURE YOU HAVE STEP 3 before you apply.right after med graduation.
You are competing with your classmates for that same spot. there are hundreds of repeat applicants from your school alone.
Dont think everyone from your class gets residency. Over 40+ % wont get a spot, ore more( dont believe everthing your school tell you)
AGAIN: NO FAILURES. NO GAPS. Know how much you owe to bank.
Think about money before you apply, not after. have Precise plan( this is very very important) if you screw up you will have debt over your eyeballs. Good luck